Swedish empire taking another turn?

[yourworstnightmare]

No, that one already existed.

No, it happened in 1618, all Gustav Vasa's daughters were married by then (most of them were dead, the living ones were old).

 

[Susano]

No, it happened in 1618, all Gustav Vasa's daughters were married by then (most of them were dead, the living ones were old).

Its about Gustav Adolf. And his daughter Christina, who never married.
Besides, the Duchy fell to the Hohenzollern mainline not by marriage, but because they were the next nearest branch.

 

[Matthais Corvinus]

Not quite. The question of the Cleves inheritance was settled at Westphalia, which became split between Brandneburg and Palatinate-Neuburg (which got Berg and Jülich), with the third claimant, Saxony, getting zilk (but it included the titles in its titulatory all the way to the end of the HREGN). Dont ask me how those claims worked, but in any case, Cleves, Mark, Ravensburg were all part of the Cleves inheritance, and that was all territories in the west Brandenburg (to say Prussia at that time is anachronistic) had at the time.

Thanks for the clarification.

And please, what "tradition of Prussian eastern expansion"? No, really, what tradition? There was none. Now, if you meant western expansion, there was no concerted effort at that, either. It was all opportunity, and that was normal in the early modenr age. States (or rather, dynasties) acquired claims by good marriages or imperial fiat or whatever, and then acted on them. Funnily enough, what Brandenburg and later Prussia really wanted, where they DID make concerted efforts to gain it, was Saxony, but they never did gain it (and never had any claim to it, either). As it was - the Cleves inheritance, the Orange inheritance and East Frisia, that was as said all opportunity, no great plan for an expansion westwards.

Unless I'm horribly mistaken, the Duchy of Prussia that Brandenburg inherited was the secularized territory of what had been the Teutonic Order. When the Grandmaster converted to Protestantism he disbanded the order and became the Duke of Prussia. So the "tradition" is that of the Teutonic Order.

Really its not that important. The Swedes had plenty of compelling, modern reasons to want to conquer as much of the Baltic coastline as possible.

Under these new conditions, do you think that Sweden-Brandenburg will get the pieces of Saxony it wants?

Another question- now that Frederick William (the Elector who would have married Christina) is married to the heir of the Swedish Kingdom, what will happen when King Gustav dies? Will Christina rule as the sole monarch, with Frederick William as a consort, or will Frederick William become the Swedish King at Christina's side?

I dont really see a split of focus, either. With Brandenburg and Sweden united, youll also have Pommern united, and have Prussia added to the Baltic Sea encompassing shoreline. Sweden-Brandenburg's first aim would of course be to get Prussia independent (instead of it being a Polish fief), something Brandenburg achieved alone IOTL (and even against the Swedes), so they will manage that. And then it will probably set out to win control of the remaining Baltic coastline - Royal Prussia, Mecklenburg, Holstein...

Prussian independence doesn't seem terribly hard. I don't think Prussia will ever become a Kingdom under these conditions though, since no-one needs a kingdom anymore.

 

[Susano]

Well, yes, of course Brandenburg acquired Prussia, but thats all expansion eastwards you have until Frederick II enters the scene IOTL

As for the mechanics of a perosnal union, well, Christina inherits the Kingdom. So, yes, technically, the union will only be perfect under their heir, if they manage to produce one. But still I think the centre of the union will be Sweden, not Brandenburg, so Saxony is kinda outside the focus now. Most likely, they will indeed just focus on getting the complete baltic coastline...

 

[Darkaiz]

Would have been cool to see Sweden-Prussia-France unite during that time in a "Union Alliance" or something similar

One thing I've thought about though...
How would religion affect all this? I mean, religion (protestantism, catholicism etcetera) was the thing that started the 30-year war in the first place (and which made Sweden the "leader" of protestantism in Europe for the coming 70-80 years)

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Its about Gustav Adolf. And his daughter Christina, who never married.
Besides, the Duchy fell to the Hohenzollern mainline not by marriage, but because they were the next nearest branch.

Okay... but wasn't she a catholic. That was the reason she abdicated from the Swedish throne.

 

[Darkaiz]

Okay... but wasn't she a catholic. That was the reason she abdicated from the Swedish throne.

Yup. She went to Rome so she could openly practice her religion.

But maybe if she had been a protestant? just an idea...
If so then she would probably have remained King (Yes that was her official title even though everyone called her "Queen")

 

[Susano]

Okay... but wasn't she a catholic. That was the reason she abdicated from the Swedish throne.

She converted to Catholciism. She was born a protestant.

As said, she was dififcult - never married, abdicated the throne, converted to Catholcism... but its a simple enough WI, what if she was a normal, conventional lady of the time? In which case she most likely wouldve agreed to her fathers marriage plans and wouldve married the Great Elector.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

She converted to Catholciism. She was born a protestant.

As said, she was dififcult - never married, abdicated the throne, converted to Catholcism... but its a simple enough WI, what if she was a normal, conventional lady of the time? In which case she most likely wouldve agreed to her fathers marriage plans and wouldve married the Great Elector.

I think she was very young at the time of her father's death, so it shouldn't be too hard to butterfly away her later attraction to Catholicism. The problem is that she was a Lutheran and the Great Elector was Calvinist.

 

[Susano]

I think she was very young at the time of her father's death, so it shouldn't be too hard to butterfly away her later attraction to Catholicism. The problem is that she was a Lutheran and the Great Elector was Calvinist.

That somehow worked out though - the Hohenzollerns did intermarry with Protestants. Apparently intercofnessional marriages were at least between Calvinists and Lutherans possible...

 

[pompejus]

The problem is that she was a Lutheran and the Great Elector was Calvinist.

I believe that in those days all protestants were good. The Dutch calvinist stadholders married into the Anglican British royal family for example. I believe that all non-catholics were good, because the Dutch royal family married members of the russian royal family, but it may be that that only happened in the 19th century.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Protestant royalty intermarried a lot whether they were Calvinists, Lutherans or Anglicans.

 

[Matthais Corvinus]

She converted to Catholciism. She was born a protestant.

As said, she was dififcult - never married, abdicated the throne, converted to Catholcism... but its a simple enough WI, what if she was a normal, conventional lady of the time? In which case she most likely wouldve agreed to her fathers marriage plans and wouldve married the Great Elector.

She had an unusual upbringing for a princess of that age. He father decided that she would be his heir when she was born (the only live birth Gustav and his wife had), and he raised her with her future role as the ruling Queen in mind.

The key POD though doesn't have a whole lot to do with Christina personality though, it basically is King Gustavus Adolphus not dying at the battle of Lutzen in 1634. If he lives, then Sweden continues to be ruled by an intelligent and ambitious King. His death meant a regency for the 7 year old Christina, and basically an end to the Swedish intervention in the 30 Years' War.

His living though will end up putting significant ripples out, since if he survives Lutzen the Swedes are in a very good position. Albrecht von Wallenstein was scheming to get a peace treaty, scheming that OTL got him killed by the Emperor. King Gustavus wanted a peace treaty, and with Wallenstein in command of the Imperial army its very possible that Gustavus makes a deal with Wallenstein. This would be a really cool timeline, though I'm quite sure its been done.

 

[Susano]

His living though will end up putting significant ripples out

Thats the problem. Gustav Adolf surviving would mean way more than just Sweden-Brandenburg union, and hence I think one can count a differnet personaliyt for Christina as the more minor PoD. Though, of coruse, Gustav Adolf surviving fits in the theme of this topic. Then again, what more can he gain in the 30 Years War? All of Pommerania, sure, but with the union with Brandenburg that becomes relatively moot anyways... the ripple effects would mainly be for Swedens ally - Gustav Adolf went around giving around land like fiefs to his allies as if he were the Emperor. Now, with him surviving and the Swedish Army remaining successful on the field, maybe some of those territorial changes are pushed through...

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Then again, what more can he gain in the 30 Years War?

I think the Swedes wanted Silesia too, which in this TTL would be attached to Brandenburg if they get it.

The religious difference would be an issue because their child would rule both countries in his own right. Sweden was Lutheran while Brandenburg-Prussia was mostly Lutheran but had a Calvinist dynasty; I expect religious leaders in both countries to give quite a damn about the child's religion. Relations between Lutherans and Calvinists were never that good (the enemy of your enemy is not your friend) and the war simply imposed a truce.

 

[Matthais Corvinus]

Thats the problem. Gustav Adolf surviving would mean way more than just Sweden-Brandenburg union, and hence I think one can count a differnet personality for Christina as the more minor PoD. Though, of course, Gustav Adolf surviving fits in the theme of this topic.

I don't think that the marriage would take place unless the Swedes remain the engaged power that a living Gustuvus would guarentee.

Then again, what more can he gain in the 30 Years War?

All of Pommerania, sure, but with the union with Brandenburg that becomes relatively moot anyways... the ripple effects would mainly be for Swedens ally - Gustav Adolf went around giving around land like fiefs to his allies as if he were the Emperor. Now, with him surviving and the Swedish Army remaining successful on the field, maybe some of those territorial changes are pushed through...

Well, the first thing he can gain is peace. He wanted to make a peace and make sure his gains would be acknowledged, but the Imperials continued to fight. After Lutzen the Emperor will still not want to do a deal with Sweden, so peace might not be forthcoming. On the other hand, Wallenstein was up to something, and he is in command (and is the paymaster) of the Imperial Army (recently defeated but wintering in Bohemia). Wallenstein's plots are something that Gustavus is certainly in a position to push along, and possibly involve himself in, if only to make the Emperor come to an agreement.

I'm not sure how this would work out, but I think that it looks like its heading toward something generally bad for the Hapsburg. If Gustavus seeks to impose peace by destroying Wallenstein's Imperial army, then he could chase it right into Bohemia, which would set off even more issues, as Protestant Bohemia was the beginning of the whole 30 Years' War.

If he managed to get the territorial changes confirmed as he wanted, plus the marriage of his heir to Brandenburg's heir, then Sweden has just become not only the 800 lb gorilla of Northern Europe, but the official leader of German protestantism. Gustavus will hold the balance of power in Germany.

I think I feel the King Frederick William I getting a bump up the food chain. Emperor Frederick William I anyone?

 

[Codae]

ah right my bad (no I'm not an idiot when it comes to history)

?? =30 =End of message? where does this usage come from, may I ask?

Huh? I didn't just post an "" I did post more in that same post
Or what do u mean?

I'm pretty sure "" is a stylized face rotated ~1.57 radians counterclockwise.

Unfortunately, I don't have anything to contribute to this AH discussion.

 

[Darkaiz]

I'm pretty sure " is a stylized face rotated ~1.57 radians counterclockwise.

Unfortunately, I don't have anything to contribute to this AH discussion.

Yes the "" is a smiley.

The "Gustavus Adolphus surviving" theory does sound rather interesting. This would (as some here have already stated) probably change many things and create big butterflies

One more thing;
In the story that I had invented where sweden gains more power blah blah etc, I thought of the possibility that Sweden could / would "Help" their Prussian allies (if they ally with eachother as suggested in this thread), to gain power and make them a powerful empire.

But since Prussia seems to have been rather small at the given time period, I don't really see how this could happen... (saw on a map that Prussia was like rly rly small)

Suggestions on possible reasons for Prussia becoming an imperialistic, powerful nation that could be allied with sweden so they could support eachother?
Or am I just out in deep water now, drowning horribly...

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

But since Prussia seems to have been rather small at the given time period, I don't really see how this could happen... (saw on a map that Prussia was like rly rly small)

Prussia was small-ish, Brandenburg-Prussia was moderately-sized and had the potential to become the 2nd most powerful state in Germany (which it did even before Frederick the Great). A potential it shared with Bavaria and Saxony, so it's really a historical accident that Prussia became a Great Power and those 2 didn't.

 

[Susano]

I think the Swedes wanted Silesia too, which in this TTL would be attached to Brandenburg if they get it.

The religious difference would be an issue because their child would rule both countries in his own right. Sweden was Lutheran while Brandenburg-Prussia was mostly Lutheran but had a Calvinist dynasty; I expect religious leaders in both countries to give quite a damn about the child's religion. Relations between Lutherans and Calvinists were never that good (the enemy of your enemy is not your friend) and the war simply imposed a truce.

Hm, I see about Silesia. How... odd. Especially as Silesia belongs to the Bohemian Crown, which is, err, what started the whole war in the first place.

And yes, fo course the childs religion will matter. I was just saying gthat lutheran-calvinist marriaged happened, though yes, it might be special here. Unfortunately, it appears the Great Elector even took his creed very seriously, and Gustav Adolf just fought years in Germany for Lutheranism and hence wont like his grandson to be Lutheran, either. So, ye,s that could become problematic. OTOH, such marriage plans existed IOTL, so obviously they mustve thought about that IOTL.

Oh, and btw, the enemy of your enemy is sometimes your friend even in matters of religion. During the Reformation, Hesse and South Germany all theologcially rather tended to Zwingli, but kept with Luthers creed for reasons of political-theological unity...

Prussia was small-ish, Brandenburg-Prussia was moderately-sized and had the potential to become the 2nd most powerful state in Germany (which it did even before Frederick the Great). A potential it shared with Bavaria and Saxony, so it's really a historical accident that Prussia became a Great Power and those 2 didn't.

A string of competent rulers basically, yeah (Frederick William the Great Elector, King Frederick I, the Soldier King Frederick William I and Frederick II the Great). Though I wouldnt give Bavaria much of a chance - that in the end all Wittelsbach lines came together pretty much was a historic coincidence, too. And it got expanded enomously in the mediation - at the time of the 30 Years Wars it was small, and at the time of the reformation even small and divided... Saxony, though, one of the richest states due to the ores in the, err, Ore Mountains, yeah, that could have become so much more. Unfortunately, they suffered a string of really bad rulers...

I don't think that the marriage would take place unless the Swedes remain the engaged power that a living Gustuvus would guarentee.

Uh, why? Christina is the heir, so she has to marry somebody -a t least, that would be the conventional thinking at the time.

On the other hand, Wallenstein was up to something, and he is in command (and is the paymaster) of the Imperial Army (recently defeated but wintering in Bohemia). Wallenstein's plots are something that Gustavus is certainly in a position to push along, and possibly involve himself in, if only to make the Emperor come to an agreement.

Was Wallenstein really? I always thought that were only accusations his enemies engineered. I cant see the guy paying a large patr of the Impeiral Army out of his own pockets just so switching sides, anyways.

I think I feel the King Frederick William I getting a bump up the food chain. Emperor Frederick William I anyone?

Hm, if Habsburg does lose Bohemia, then the Proetstants have the numerical superiority among the Pricne-Electros - indeed, the only catholic Prince-Electors would be the three Prince-Electorly Archbishops! Though I think if Havbsburg is not utterly destroyed than any peace will most likely give an equal amount of Prince-Elector sto both sides - most likely Austria proper will be raised to become a Prince-Electorate. Which ensures a virtual deadlock, of course, as tempers wont flare down enough within one generation to vote outside confessional borders... especialyl as then still three of the four catholic Prince-Electors are Archbishops...