Sweden was a neutral country in both World War I and II, but I'm talking in the WWII perspective. Now what if Sweden joins the war on the Allies' side? Suppose Sweden joins the war in 1940 when Germany declares war on Sweden for contributing supplies and aid to Finland in her struggle against the Soviet Union during the Winter War? Or if the Soviet Union declares war on Sweden and launches an invasion of Sweden from Finland? What could happen next?
Sweden joins WWII
- Thread starter Scomerger
- Start date
Redbeard
Banned
Sweden could mobilise half a million men, but by 1940 her stocks of ammo and weapons were low due to supplying the Finns in the Finno-Russian war in 1939-40.
The biggest problem for the Germans would probably be the Swedish Navy. The German losses at Norway were serious enough, but if adding the losses against Sweden the Germans risk ending up withoput a surface navy at all. This will to a large degree reduce the British fears of invasion in 1940-41.
If Sweden is involved Denmark, especially the Danish Navy might choose to stay in the fight, only adding to the serious trouble of the Kriegsmarine.
On land and in the air Germany no doubt could overwhelm Sweden too, it is just a question of commttting enough resources. But significant resources will be needed, I guess in the region of 20 Divisions, and they will not be ready by May 1940 for the invasion of France. With VERY good luck they might be ready by June, but postponing the invasion of France by a month or more will seriously risk giving the French time to gain enough cohesion.
Most probably Sweden will not be taken out until mid summer earliest, and I doubt Hitler would dare launch an autumn campaign against France, he expected it to be long. If the "Sitz-krieg" lasts into 1941, the Germans might risk being the ones on the recieving end of an invasion.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
The biggest problem for the Germans would probably be the Swedish Navy. The German losses at Norway were serious enough, but if adding the losses against Sweden the Germans risk ending up withoput a surface navy at all. This will to a large degree reduce the British fears of invasion in 1940-41.
If Sweden is involved Denmark, especially the Danish Navy might choose to stay in the fight, only adding to the serious trouble of the Kriegsmarine.
On land and in the air Germany no doubt could overwhelm Sweden too, it is just a question of commttting enough resources. But significant resources will be needed, I guess in the region of 20 Divisions, and they will not be ready by May 1940 for the invasion of France. With VERY good luck they might be ready by June, but postponing the invasion of France by a month or more will seriously risk giving the French time to gain enough cohesion.
Most probably Sweden will not be taken out until mid summer earliest, and I doubt Hitler would dare launch an autumn campaign against France, he expected it to be long. If the "Sitz-krieg" lasts into 1941, the Germans might risk being the ones on the recieving end of an invasion.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
Redbeard said:
Sweden would be a far tougher nut to crack than Norway.
A lot depends on how exactly the German invasion takes place. If the Germans allready have control of Norway, they would have a secure base for an overland invasion.
On the other hand, if Germany tried a seaborne/airborne invasion of Sweden without taking Norway first they would face huge problems. The Swedish Navy was large and well equiped for costal defence, with a sizable airforce to provide CAP. In this scenario I will go out on a limb and say the Germans loose.
Hyperion
Banned
If Sweden joins the allies before Norway, the Germans lose a number of warships and their merchant marine assets, and a number of troops on land could be killed, but I think they could win.
This could, however, give Norway time and a reason to prepare for an attack. With a number of warships and transports destroyed in order to take Sweden, invading Norway might prove somewhat more difficult.
If a neutral country such a Sweden where invaded, could this make Switzerland more nervous, since that would be the only other country in Europe aside from Sweden in OTL that didn't get invaded?
This could, however, give Norway time and a reason to prepare for an attack. With a number of warships and transports destroyed in order to take Sweden, invading Norway might prove somewhat more difficult.
If a neutral country such a Sweden where invaded, could this make Switzerland more nervous, since that would be the only other country in Europe aside from Sweden in OTL that didn't get invaded?
The only way I see Germany attacking Sweden is if the Sweds suddenly become Ally simpathisers, cut off the iron supply and get rude in the Baltic. Otherwise Germany is already getting everything from Sweeden while it's safely neutral.
And in the above scenario, unless Hitler becomes a total fool, Germany will wait until after Denmark and Norway are in their hands to attack Sweden, unless of course Sweden goes over the top and declares war themselves instead (a really far shot). So then we're going to see troops attacking from Norway and landing accross Denmark (no challenge there, the strait is too narrow). If the Germans are smart, they'll save their Kingsmarine and instead scare away the Swedish navy using the Luftwaffe alone so maybe, as a bonus, they can land troops even closer to Stockholm. I have no doubt that the Germans will be able to beat the Swedes, but the dificult terrain will surely delay them, so I don't know how long it will take (~2 months?)
So the result will be a lot of pain for the Germans for no gain, a lot of pain for the Swedes from being occupied, Fall Gelb delayed by how long it takes to conquer Sweden and then reposition troops back home on the western front.
P.S. And yes, I agree with Hans, if Sweden had the choice of joining the Axis or Allies, they will choose Axis every time.
And in the above scenario, unless Hitler becomes a total fool, Germany will wait until after Denmark and Norway are in their hands to attack Sweden, unless of course Sweden goes over the top and declares war themselves instead (a really far shot). So then we're going to see troops attacking from Norway and landing accross Denmark (no challenge there, the strait is too narrow). If the Germans are smart, they'll save their Kingsmarine and instead scare away the Swedish navy using the Luftwaffe alone so maybe, as a bonus, they can land troops even closer to Stockholm. I have no doubt that the Germans will be able to beat the Swedes, but the dificult terrain will surely delay them, so I don't know how long it will take (~2 months?)
So the result will be a lot of pain for the Germans for no gain, a lot of pain for the Swedes from being occupied, Fall Gelb delayed by how long it takes to conquer Sweden and then reposition troops back home on the western front.
What are you talking about? This is 1940 and only Poland, Denmark, Norway (and Sweden) were invaded to this point. Are you talking about the future? Then you're forgeting Spain, Portuagal, Ireland and Turkey. If anything, this will cause the Swiss to be even more pro-Axis.
P.S. And yes, I agree with Hans, if Sweden had the choice of joining the Axis or Allies, they will choose Axis every time.
I remember a big discussion on this on a forum with a lot of Swedish members once.
Sweden would not have joined the axis.
They were on good terms with nazi Germany as in their geographic position it would be stupid to do otherwise. They did help the allies as much as they could get away with though with a lot of the Swedish merchant marine defecting to Britain.
If they went insane and joined the war in 41/42 or something then they really are screwed. The best places for them to do this would be towards the end for the liberation of Norway.
Maybe we could have them be angry about the Finns getting the Aaland islands and join the war on the condition they gain them.
Sweden would not have joined the axis.
They were on good terms with nazi Germany as in their geographic position it would be stupid to do otherwise. They did help the allies as much as they could get away with though with a lot of the Swedish merchant marine defecting to Britain.
If they went insane and joined the war in 41/42 or something then they really are screwed. The best places for them to do this would be towards the end for the liberation of Norway.
Maybe we could have them be angry about the Finns getting the Aaland islands and join the war on the condition they gain them.
Sweden would not join the axis. Ever. While some of the industrial elite and general staff were very german-friendly, along with the king, the people, the press and the government was staunchly pro-allied, especially after the German invasion of Denmark and Norway. The commander in chief, Thörnell, was very german-friendly, but he was also a nationalist and loyal to the letter to the government, even if he did not agree with them at times he always carried out their orders the best he could.
The only case where I could see Sweden as co-belligrent (not axis, but co-belligrent like Finland) to Germany is in case of the British-French invasion of Narvik and follow-up invasion of Sweden to try to sieze the ore fields in northern Sweden.
A German invasion in April 1940 would likely meet more logistical problems than real opposition in Sweden - the question is, do they have enough resources to pull off an invasion of Norway and Sweden at the same time? I would say no - in order to supply troops in Sweden they would have to abandon everything north of Lillehammer in Norway to the Norweigans and the allies, which means that Sweden got two ports and two railways to get support from the western allies on, both of which are beyond effective Luftwaffe control.
I'd suspect that the Germans would be stopped at least temporarily in Småland (Kalmar-Växjö-south of Göteborg) where the terrain is riddled with lakes, streams and dense woods.
Sweden had only 40 or so Gladiators and various bombers and (even older) biplane fighters used for training in April 1940, but 60 J 9 (plus another 60 that was impounded by the US, in this situation I guess they would deliver) - Seversky EP-35 with excellent 2x13,mm Browning and 2x8mm Browning were being delivered. The Swedish airforce was still larger than the Danish and Norweigan ones combined.
Also, the Swedes had factory made molotov coctails, anti-tank and anti-personell mines, hand grenades, AT guns (although few) and light AD guns (all of which Norway lacked) and more training, real NCOs and more LMGs, mortars and MGs than the Norweigans.
I suspect that the German ability to supply larger armoured formations in Sweden would be limited, thus the lack of AT weaponry would be somewhat negated.
The only case where I could see Sweden as co-belligrent (not axis, but co-belligrent like Finland) to Germany is in case of the British-French invasion of Narvik and follow-up invasion of Sweden to try to sieze the ore fields in northern Sweden.
A German invasion in April 1940 would likely meet more logistical problems than real opposition in Sweden - the question is, do they have enough resources to pull off an invasion of Norway and Sweden at the same time? I would say no - in order to supply troops in Sweden they would have to abandon everything north of Lillehammer in Norway to the Norweigans and the allies, which means that Sweden got two ports and two railways to get support from the western allies on, both of which are beyond effective Luftwaffe control.
I'd suspect that the Germans would be stopped at least temporarily in Småland (Kalmar-Växjö-south of Göteborg) where the terrain is riddled with lakes, streams and dense woods.
Sweden had only 40 or so Gladiators and various bombers and (even older) biplane fighters used for training in April 1940, but 60 J 9 (plus another 60 that was impounded by the US, in this situation I guess they would deliver) - Seversky EP-35 with excellent 2x13,mm Browning and 2x8mm Browning were being delivered. The Swedish airforce was still larger than the Danish and Norweigan ones combined.
Also, the Swedes had factory made molotov coctails, anti-tank and anti-personell mines, hand grenades, AT guns (although few) and light AD guns (all of which Norway lacked) and more training, real NCOs and more LMGs, mortars and MGs than the Norweigans.
I suspect that the German ability to supply larger armoured formations in Sweden would be limited, thus the lack of AT weaponry would be somewhat negated.
Timmy811 said:
in OTL Sweden sent volunteer piolts to fight for Finland against the Soviet Union, perhaps go a step further and have a full out Swedish "Condor Legion?"
sweden hoins the axis
hi there i am new to this forum and i would like to give my 2 cents to the discussion if i may.
(forgive my english if its not always perfect but i am no native english speaker so i might not always make sens)
I would agree that it is unlikely for sweden to join the axis but i want to give it a try.
When the soviets invade finland italy offered support to finland in form of arms and volentiers, this was only not done under heavy protests from hitler, because he was afraid that this would endanger his pact with stalin.
but in this ATL he lets the italians send those volentiers and supplies and even offers to do the same tough limited in numbers and with only none german (captured) equipment for exapmle Czech, so that the soviets won't be able to identify them as being germans.
This would no doudt increase the pro german feelings in finland and scandinavia in general to some extend, as well as give the germans and italians some expiriance in winter warfare.
For the fins this might mean they hold out another month and inflict even more casualties on the soviets, this pisses of uncle joe so much that he orders finland to be full out annexed (the last is just a geuse but i don't think it would be out of caracter for stalin).
This hole operation slows down german preperations for the invasion of denmark and norway with about 1 week but has no effect on the allies, they still go ahead with the preventive invasion/occupation of norway.
i am not sure about the reaction of the norse but it might be divided so lets asume that the allied or more accurate british invasion of norway meats with at least small resistans.
when the germans finaly invade they to are met with mixed feelings but no armed resistance they setup an new goverment under quisling and promise to liberate norway for the british [of course this is an empty promise that they will break assoon as they feel like it]
after about a week a combined german and a small norse volentier force attacks the british forces at namsos the british are defeated but are able to retreat in good order al the way to narvik where they have supstensial reinforcments inclouding french and free polish forces, all the while the germans and norse chase the british but finaly are halted about 20 km before narvik after a few days of fighting neither side has gained an advantage and there is defacto an dead lock.
the british commander orders an out flanking attack how ever trough bad cordination and not the most accrute of maps they move over the swedish border and attack the swedish garison howm they believe to be german/norse.
the swedish garison is under heavy pressure and after about 48 of fighting is releived by a german force, the swedish commander of the garison haveing been pro german to begin with is after events of the last 48 hours easy conviced to dirve the british out of his coutry to getther with the germans.
form here on things just take there take there own course altough unintentinatly the british provoked the swedish and while under normal sircumstances things might have been solved trough diplomacy the swedish king and his goverment with there army effectivly altough quite localised already fighting the allies, have little other chooice than to join the axis.
hi there i am new to this forum and i would like to give my 2 cents to the discussion if i may.
(forgive my english if its not always perfect but i am no native english speaker so i might not always make sens)
I would agree that it is unlikely for sweden to join the axis but i want to give it a try.
When the soviets invade finland italy offered support to finland in form of arms and volentiers, this was only not done under heavy protests from hitler, because he was afraid that this would endanger his pact with stalin.
but in this ATL he lets the italians send those volentiers and supplies and even offers to do the same tough limited in numbers and with only none german (captured) equipment for exapmle Czech, so that the soviets won't be able to identify them as being germans.
This would no doudt increase the pro german feelings in finland and scandinavia in general to some extend, as well as give the germans and italians some expiriance in winter warfare.
For the fins this might mean they hold out another month and inflict even more casualties on the soviets, this pisses of uncle joe so much that he orders finland to be full out annexed (the last is just a geuse but i don't think it would be out of caracter for stalin).
This hole operation slows down german preperations for the invasion of denmark and norway with about 1 week but has no effect on the allies, they still go ahead with the preventive invasion/occupation of norway.
i am not sure about the reaction of the norse but it might be divided so lets asume that the allied or more accurate british invasion of norway meats with at least small resistans.
when the germans finaly invade they to are met with mixed feelings but no armed resistance they setup an new goverment under quisling and promise to liberate norway for the british [of course this is an empty promise that they will break assoon as they feel like it]
after about a week a combined german and a small norse volentier force attacks the british forces at namsos the british are defeated but are able to retreat in good order al the way to narvik where they have supstensial reinforcments inclouding french and free polish forces, all the while the germans and norse chase the british but finaly are halted about 20 km before narvik after a few days of fighting neither side has gained an advantage and there is defacto an dead lock.
the british commander orders an out flanking attack how ever trough bad cordination and not the most accrute of maps they move over the swedish border and attack the swedish garison howm they believe to be german/norse.
the swedish garison is under heavy pressure and after about 48 of fighting is releived by a german force, the swedish commander of the garison haveing been pro german to begin with is after events of the last 48 hours easy conviced to dirve the british out of his coutry to getther with the germans.
form here on things just take there take there own course altough unintentinatly the british provoked the swedish and while under normal sircumstances things might have been solved trough diplomacy the swedish king and his goverment with there army effectivly altough quite localised already fighting the allies, have little other chooice than to join the axis.