Sweden joins the Central Powers

[Oddball]

As said in another thread: The problem for Sweden retaking Finland is that they had to expect Russia wanting to take it back at the next opportunity - seems they didn't think it was worth it.

This is quite correct.

Ever since the loss of Finland in 1809, the Swedes realized that Finland was a lost cause. After that point Norway was the key target for Swedish foreign policy. After the loss of Norway in 1905, Sweden never had any territorial expantion on the agenda.

Even during the Crimean war the Swedes were reluctant to even consider British offers of Russian territory.

 

[Oddball]

Ahoj!
I agree - Norway in the CP is not likely. One of the best reasons being that Sweden was IN it

You are right about Norway in the CP beeing unlikely, but not because of Sweden.

Ever since the expantion of her merchant marine in the 1860-80thies, Norway have been unquestionable linked to Britain. No question what so ever.

And the reason is simple. Any "bright" Norwegian ideas would imply an instant loss of our shipping. And without that, Norway would not be worth mutch, atleast back then...

 

[chris N]

If Sweden did join the Central powers it is almost centain that its military contribution conbined with Germany's would have lead to the Fall of Finland to the Central Powers. It might have also lead to the collapse of the Russian military 2 years earlier. At the very least a treaty would have seen Finland restored to Sweden.

 

[Scurck]

This is quite correct.

Ever since the loss of Finland in 1809, the Swedes realized that Finland was a lost cause. After that point Norway was the key target for Swedish foreign policy. After the loss of Norway in 1905, Sweden never had any territorial expantion on the agenda.

Even during the Crimean war the Swedes were reluctant to even consider British offers of Russian territory.

More then a hundred years had passed since 1809 and lessons learned from history are quickly forgotten. Especially if Sweden can fight the Russians along with strong allies, which was a rare thing througout history.
Finland was and IS in the heart of many Swedes.
Finlands sak är vår!

 

[Tocomocho]

If Sweden doesn't think that she could retain Finland, why not make it an independent kingdom with some Swedish prince on the throne? Aland could still go to Sweden, and it would eliminate any possible anti-Swedish sentiment in Finland (it could happen if Sweden just annex Finland without respecting the autonomy it had under the Russians).

 

[Scurck]

Autonomy under the Russians? 707!

The minute Finland was rejoined with Sweden the Finns would have fully equal citizenship - The brother peoples would be together again!

 

[zoomar]

Regardless of who eventually wins WW1, I think Sweden joining the CP would radically change Scandinavia and how Scandinavians think about themselves. This would have effectively ended the tradition of Scandinavian neutralism, and perhaps almost as likely, might have slowed the trend of scandinavian democracy. Sweden's entry into the Great War might have created a domino effect leading to Norway's and Denmark's entry as well.

If Sweden and the other Central Powers eventually win the war, it would not be surprising to see Sweden occupy (are at least assert hegemony over) Finland - and possibly even the Baltic States. Being linked to the victorious autocracies of Germany and AH, the Swedish royal family and nobility - and even people - might be less interested in progressing along the damocratic path. Like in Wilhemine Germany, a social welfare state may have arisin without the socialism.

If they lose the war, the victorious allies might punish Sweden by partitioning the country. Skane might be given its independence, and portions of Swedish lapland given to Finland (or Russia, perhaps, if Lenin's revolution get's butterflied away). Swedes would be revisionist and attracted to fascist or communist extremism. In this scenario, when and if WW2 comes, Scandinavia would probably automatically be aligned in one way or another with the Allies and Axis. These countries might enter the war in 1939. They would be devastated, invaded, bombed, and when the war is over and - assuming the OTL allies win, partitioned by the iron curtain along with the rest of Europe.

 

[chris N]

I could see a victorous Sweden ,as a Central Powers partner, gaining a lot more than just Finland. It would probably gain Murmask and a lot of the other territory. It is extremely doubtful that the allies would punish the Sweds especially if the communist came to power in Russia. Great Britain and France would then be seeking something to contain the "Red " threat.

 

[TotrueTufaar]

Regardless of who eventually wins WW1, I think Sweden joining the CP would radically change Scandinavia and how Scandinavians think about themselves. This would have effectively ended the tradition of Scandinavian neutralism, and perhaps almost as likely, might have slowed the trend of scandinavian democracy. Sweden's entry into the Great War might have created a domino effect leading to Norway's and Denmark's entry as well.

If Sweden and the other Central Powers eventually win the war, it would not be surprising to see Sweden occupy (are at least assert hegemony over) Finland - and possibly even the Baltic States. Being linked to the victorious autocracies of Germany and AH, the Swedish royal family and nobility - and even people - might be less interested in progressing along the damocratic path. Like in Wilhemine Germany, a social welfare state may have arisin without the socialism.

If they lose the war, the victorious allies might punish Sweden by partitioning the country. Skane might be given its independence, and portions of Swedish lapland given to Finland (or Russia, perhaps, if Lenin's revolution get's butterflied away). Swedes would be revisionist and attracted to fascist or communist extremism. In this scenario, when and if WW2 comes, Scandinavia would probably automatically be aligned in one way or another with the Allies and Axis. These countries might enter the war in 1939. They would be devastated, invaded, bombed, and when the war is over and - assuming the OTL allies win, partitioned by the iron curtain along with the rest of Europe.

The Norwegians had a British Queen and a Danish King when recreated. THe Danes had half of their remaining territory on the mainland seized by the Germans. The Russians had a Danish Queen. While most of Europe had this sort of thing, the grugdess of fifty years past could live. If the Germans agreed to reverse the Danish-Prussian War, and have the United Baltic Duchy be of Scandinavian influence, it could be possible. Have the huge oil fields of Antarctica and the Norwegian and North Seas be contested between the British and Norwegians. A list by an Italian-American on how Northern Europeans have stolen all their inventions might be a good grudge maker.


But seriously, the Nordic trio were almost an alliance. They used to use the money of the others at the same exchange rate, like the modern day Euro, and the Swedes would not be able to get the public opinion to support the Germans. They would have to be FORCED in. The Germans got the Ottomans into the war by flying Ottoman flags when they attacked several Entente warships.

 

[arctic warrior]

Regardless of who eventually wins WW1, I think Sweden joining the CP would radically change Scandinavia and how Scandinavians think about themselves. This would have effectively ended the tradition of Scandinavian neutralism, and perhaps almost as likely, might have slowed the trend of scandinavian democracy. Sweden's entry into the Great War might have created a domino effect leading to Norway's and Denmark's entry as well.

I strongly disagree on this idea of a domino effect. Denmark could have been forced into the war by Germany or by allied action, but not on her own accord.
But I find it true that Sweden joining the CP would change Scandinavia and have an effect on future cooperation. I don't see it slowing democracy in Norway of Denmark. Perhaps a kind of right-wing interlude in the twenties and thirties.

If Sweden and the other Central Powers eventually win the war, it would not be surprising to see Sweden occupy (are at least assert hegemony over) Finland - and possibly even the Baltic States. Being linked to the victorious autocracies of Germany and AH, the Swedish royal family and nobility - and even people - might be less interested in progressing along the damocratic path. Like in Wilhemine Germany, a social welfare state may have arisin without the socialism.

Could go that way.

If they lose the war, the victorious allies might punish Sweden by partitioning the country. Skane might be given its independence, and portions of Swedish lapland given to Finland (or Russia, perhaps, if Lenin's revolution get's butterflied away). Swedes would be revisionist and attracted to fascist or communist extremism. In this scenario, when and if WW2 comes, Scandinavia would probably automatically be aligned in one way or another with the Allies and Axis. These countries might enter the war in 1939. They would be devastated, invaded, bombed, and when the war is over and - assuming the OTL allies win, partitioned by the iron curtain along with the rest of Europe.

I don't see this coming about - neighter Germany nor Bulgaria was partitioned. Why would Sweden be then? Perhaps the other Scandinavians would like to... but still we wouldn't get Scania

The overall effect could be a much stronger Danish defence, but probably Denmark wouldn't get the plebiscite 1920 as it did, and have to wait another war for that. Denmark would have to consider giving up Jutland in future conflict to be able to survive as a nation. That would give a more "Swedish" neutrality mentality in Denmark. Maybe even plan to move the capital in case of war to Roskilde! Well anywhere except the North Atlantic would be equally unsuited to defence. Hmm, temporary capital in Rejkjavik.
Norway on the other hand would most probably ally itself lot, stock and barrel to Britain.

 

[zoomar]

I don't see this coming about - neighter Germany nor Bulgaria was partitioned. Why would Sweden be then? Perhaps the other Scandinavians would like to... but still we wouldn't get Scania

Perhaps "partitioned" was a poor choice of words. After WW1 all the central powers lost territory to adjacent states (of course the A/H Empire was partitioned). If Sweden were in the CP, they would have almost certainly lost territory, and Skania would be the most likely place to go - either given to Denmark or made independent.

 

[arctic warrior]

Perhaps "partitioned" was a poor choice of words. After WW1 all the central powers lost territory to adjacent states (of course the A/H Empire was partitioned). If Sweden were in the CP, they would have almost certainly lost territory, and Skania would be the most likely place to go - either given to Denmark or made independent.

I think fallen apart would better describe the A/H situation.
But yes something was ceded but dismembering Sweden would be different.
I don't think the advantages of keeping the Oeresund an international waterway would be changed by giving both banks to Denmark. Independent? Perhaps. Why not rather give some of central and northern Sweden to Norway, depriving Sweden of minerals instead of agriculture?

 

[Atreus]

Perhaps "partitioned" was a poor choice of words. After WW1 all the central powers lost territory to adjacent states (of course the A/H Empire was partitioned). If Sweden were in the CP, they would have almost certainly lost territory, and Skania would be the most likely place to go - either given to Denmark or made independent.

Only if Denmark activly fights. Denmark only got what it did because of the war in the 1860's (name escapes me). No irredentist sentiment in Skania for the same result.

 

[chris N]

It is doubtful that the allied powers would give Swedish territory to either Norway or Denmark unless those countries joined their side in World War I. A concern of the Major Powers was still the Soviet threat,even though the civil war was still ongoing. For that reason elements of the British Government would oppose the breakup of Sweden and would probaly carry that position on to the peace talks in France. Also the US would oppose the particion of Sweden.

 

[chris N]

A big question that needs to be answered would be what would Sweden get for joining the Central Powers in the war? Might it not get an enlarged Finland that would be bigger that the one in history and what would be the position regarding Estonia, which was at one time Swedish?

 

[schrammy]

A big question that needs to be answered would be what would Sweden get for joining the Central Powers in the war? Might it not get an enlarged Finland that would be bigger that the one in history and what would be the position regarding Estonia, which was at one time Swedish?

i geuse that kind of depends on the POD.
there are 2 POD's i can think off that might bring them into the war on the CP side.

POD 1 (most likely of the 2)

the russian admiral what's his name try's to force the swedish navy to leave there port and sail to another port of the russians choosing, the swedish however refuse and a fight erupts wheter or not the russian admiral was acting under orders or on his own and no matter howm wins that battle (i some where read that at the time that almost happend a couple of german warships where not 2 far away so there might be a slim chance of victory for sweden/germany)
but no matter the reason or out come sweden would be at war with russia and that makes it almost by default atleast an allie of the CP if not even a direct member.

what would they get well finland for sure also all of the kurilian peninsula but i don't think they get estonia in this pod germany wanted the baltics for it self either directly annexed or as puppets it controlled, since sweden would be already on there side it's doudtfull they would get more than that the germans wanted to have them.

POD 2 (not at all likely but not ABS either if you ask me)

the entente makes several more mistakes either military or propaganda (like the german sinking of the lusitania but than something like this done by the entente) public opinion amongs the swedisch population and the goverment schifts clearly in favor of the CP.

the king and army get green light to negotiate with the CP for swedens entry into the war with a bit of luck they get all of the above pluss estonia.

 

[Atreus]

Net result: Russia collapses a bit faster. If the Cp win, Sweden gets Finland and Estonia. If they still lose, they pay reparations but don't lose territory.

 

[schrammy]

Net result: Russia collapses a bit faster. If the Cp win, Sweden gets Finland and Estonia. If they still lose, they pay reparations but don't lose territory.

yep that sums it up rather nicely

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Baltic Duchy

i geuse that kind of depends on the POD.
there are 2 POD's i can think off that might bring them into the war on the CP side.

POD 1 (most likely of the 2)

the russian admiral what's his name try's to force the swedish navy to leave there port and sail to another port of the russians choosing, the swedish however refuse and a fight erupts wheter or not the russian admiral was acting under orders or on his own and no matter howm wins that battle (i some where read that at the time that almost happend a couple of german warships where not 2 far away so there might be a slim chance of victory for sweden/germany)
but no matter the reason or out come sweden would be at war with russia and that makes it almost by default atleast an allie of the CP if not even a direct member.

what would they get well finland for sure also all of the kurilian peninsula but i don't think they get estonia in this pod germany wanted the baltics for it self either directly annexed or as puppets it controlled, since sweden would be already on there side it's doudtfull they would get more than that the germans wanted to have them.

POD 2 (not at all likely but not ABS either if you ask me)

the entente makes several more mistakes either military or propaganda (like the german sinking of the lusitania but than something like this done by the entente) public opinion amongs the swedisch population and the goverment schifts clearly in favor of the CP.

the king and army get green light to negotiate with the CP for swedens entry into the war with a bit of luck they get all of the above pluss estonia.

I think that in either case if the Swedes entered they would make it clear to the Western allies that their quarrel was with Russia and not they, if we assume that it is Russia that brings them into the conflict, I honestly don't see them coming in of their own accord. If Russia is defeated, then Sweden will make its gains only against Russia. Even if the Central Powers then lose to the Western Allies, they probably won't lose them. A Western win probably won't strip away everything of this Tl B-L. There is also the potential for Swedish and thence Western aid to the "White's" if a similiar Russian Civil War results, but perhaps if Russia collapses earlier, then this doesn't happen. OtL the Baltic Duchy chose the Duke of Mecklenburg but perhaps they will prefer a Bernadotte this time around instead ( William and Maria Pavlovna perhaps...), or the Estonians of the Duchy agitate for it to get a more independent position between the Central powers in the Baltic. Lithuania could end up instead annexed to Germany or with a Hohenzollern. Finland will probably be re-joined in personal Union at least. Karelia-Kola perhaps, if the CP is Victorious... in a Swedish Commonwealth type arrangement along with Finland.

 

[chris N]

Would it not be in the western allies interest that a Greater Sweden be allowed to exist as a check on the Soviet Union. Remember Great Britain Atattacked Soviet naval forces in the Baltic to aid the Baltic States. Thus a larger Swedn would be stronger and better able to fight the Reds.