Deleted member 1487
How can a country made up of Sweden and Finland survive until the modern day and what effects would this have on Europe?
How can a country made up of Sweden and Finland survive until the modern day and what effects would this have on Europe?
Let Sweden cave in to the french demands of joining the Continental blockade of Great Britain, thereby avoiding the Russian invasion and conquest of Finland. Then after 1812 and Napoleons invasion of Russia, switch side (or rather - join the Anglo-Russian side). It should do the trick, at least in the short run.
Consequences: If Sweden can avoid further wars with Russia (fairly belivable, since the Vienna conference kept the peace until Russia started its drive to the south) nothing would happen until maybe finnish nationalism against Sweden started. Or if Sweden began a soft "swedinisation" of Finland with more Swedish-speaking schools and so on.
Scandinavism ("all scandinavians have a lot in common and should cooperate") would not appear, or be far weaker, since the loss of Finland was a strong factor for Swedes to join this movement.
IOTL Norway declared its independence from Denmark just to be conquered by Sweden as compensation for the loss of Finland. ITTL it may not happen, and Norway become independent around 1810-15. That would mean a lot to Norway, but not to the rest of the world (since Norway was fairly independent as a part of Sweden - large trading fleet and so on).
In a longer perspective it becomes difficult to predict. Sweden-Finland would be far stronger than only Sweden, but the danger is that someone gets the great idea to start a new war with Russia, join Denmark against Preussia 1864 or some other stupid foreign adventure. Sweden-Finland is still a third rate power with possible delusions.
Probably S-F would sit out WW1 and WW2. S-F could be so big that Soviet never made any demands in 1939 (or that the Russians got Karelia around 1815), thereby preventing the Winter War.
A Sweden-Finland 2009 would be far bigger in the wood-paper market and probably feed large parts of the EU with electricity.
In a longer perspective it becomes difficult to predict. Sweden-Finland would be far stronger than only Sweden, but the danger is that someone gets the great idea to start a new war with Russia, join Denmark against Preussia 1864 or some other stupid foreign adventure. Sweden-Finland is still a third rate power with possible delusions.
Probably S-F would sit out WW1 and WW2. S-F could be so big that Soviet never made any demands in 1939 (or that the Russians got Karelia around 1815), thereby preventing the Winter War.
A Sweden-Finland 2009 would be far bigger in the wood-paper market and probably feed large parts of the EU with electricity.
I agree with most of what has been said, but people seem to be ignoring butterflies as DrakonFin says, and also failing to understand that in 1809 Russia had held approximate Stalinian Karelia (actually a bit more, known as "Old Finland") since 1721, annexing it after the Great Northern War for reasons of security. Therefore more butterflies, and whatever happens then Russia wont be grabbing Karelia in 1815!
Would Bernadotte still become king of Sweden ITTL or would the invitation made to him be butterflied?
As the third post state that Sweden-Finland joins the Continental Blockade instead of allying itself to Britain then there should be no 1808-9 war thus no Russian taking of Old Finland.
I think people have been aware of that!
That in itself is a major butterfly.
But of course nothing have been mentioned as to the possible Swedish loss of Old Finland 1815, which would have severe repercussions in Scandinavia.
Others are my post on events in Denmark-Norway which would be very much influenced as stated.
If Sweden loses Old Finland 1815 and Denmark-Norway come through the war unscated we might see a Scandinavian war with Sweden going for Norway.
Acctually Sweden lost old Finland in 1721.
Acctually Sweden lost old Finland in 1721. Old Finland was pretty much Stalin's Karelia and modern day Eastern Finland.
Remember the butterfly effect. It is ASB for World War I to transpire in the same wayfor such a POD as large. In fact, it is up in the air whether there'll be a world war I analouge in TTL in the first quater of the 20th century itself , or whether it would be the World war I of Trench Warfare, as we understand it in OTL.
So it seems that the POD would best be the entry of Sweden into the continental system. What does this mean for British-Swedish relations, and what does this mean for Gustav IV? It seems that at the first excuse the King and his family will be kicked from holding the thrown, but it is unlikely that Bernadotte will hold the throne.
Regardless, it is Sweden is going to fight against Napoleon in 1814/5 and possibly help Russia during the invasion. So what does this mean for Sweden at Vienna? They still fought, meaning they are likely to get some sort of reward. Unless they were important to the defense of Russia during Napoleon's invasion, don't expect anything in the Baltic. But is Norway still off the table? I am not sure, as Denmark still needed to be punished for helping Napoleon. Perhaps part of Norway?
In any event, the survival of the Swedish-Finnish union is going to be huge to Russia, who may decide a second go for all of Finland is in the cards, but expect Sweden to be making alliances against the threat of the Russian bear. Perhaps Sweden jumps in during the Crimean war?
Also, the basic trends leading up to WW1 are not upset by Finland remaining Swedish, so expect Sweden to be more worried about Russia ITTL. I would see expect to see S-F in a central powers analogue and would be willing to take Russia down a notch.
If that war still occurs, what effect would a Scandinavian army knocking at the door of St. Petersburg have on Russian war plans? Would this be enough for the capitol to be taken or would Russia have switched their capitol to Moscow by this point?