Sweden enters the Crimean War

[yourworstnightmare]

I actually think this might result in a Sweden screw. A bigger Sweden might not actually be a better Sweden at all. Finland had started to get it's own identity under Russian rule. Some were nostalgic of the Swedish era, but a return to becoming a couple of backwards provinces from having been a autonomous Grand Duchy would not be popular.

I can see the language issue being worse than OTL. Now the Swedish speakers would have backing from Stockholm, and we might see crackdowns on the Finnish cultural awakening. Sweden would probably want to Swedify Finland, the last thing they'd want is another stubborn Norway on their hands. And Sweden is no Russia, keeping an unwilling population in check would actually be a choir.

And speaking of Norway, a larger Sweden might still consider itself something of a power player, and would not let the Norwegians leave the union peacefully.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

I actually think this might result in a Sweden screw. A bigger Sweden might not actually be a better Sweden at all. Finland had started to get it's own identity under Russian rule. Some were nostalgic of the Swedish era, but a return to becoming a couple of backwards provinces from having been a autonomous Grand Duchy would not be popular.

Unless Sweden offered them a better deal. Would Sweden have allowed an autonomous Finland?

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Unless Sweden offered them a better deal. Would Sweden have allowed an autonomous Finland?

Probably not. Autonomous Norway had always tasted a little bitter, and Finland was just some lost provinces, not an ancient kingdom. The Crimean War is just a tad too early for Sweden to consider Finland a "nation".

 

[chris N]

The Royal Navy's Baltic Squadron totaled 49 warship and the British Government in the agreement had also promised to provide some troops.
The French Also had agreed to send ships and a small amount of ground forces. However, the bulk of the ground forces would have to be the Swedish Army. Britain had sent all too many troops to the Crimea and with problems cropping up elsewhere in the Empire they could not afford to raise another army to serve there.
The great hope was that the Austrians would be convinced to enter the war. This would mean a power with a large army thus drawing the strength of the Imperial Russian Army away.

 

[Lt.Gen 767]

Too weak? Eh, they managed to take on Napoleon's armies and chase them back to Paris.

Yes, Russia was big and it had a large (and at the start of the century) powerful army. However it was poor, unindustrialised, most of its population were illiterate peasants; its government system gave total power to aristocrats who had no knowledge of the real world and the nobles blocked any attempt at reform. It was pretty much unchanged since the middle ages. It struggled to beat the Ottoman Empire; in the Crimean war it lost to what was basically a Franco-British expeditionary force. Even its huge size came from taking over largely uninhabited wasteland
It was a miracle that they managed to make it to the First World War before it totally collapsed.

Also: 100 posts. Woo Hoo!

 

[The Gunslinger]

Alternatively if Sweden and Austria join the allies against Russia this could convince Prussia to side with the Russians. Berlin and St. Petersburg were quite close after the Napoleonic Wars and a chance for Prussia to expand its influence in Germany against a distracted France and Austria would be quite tempting..

Prussia would have enemies to the North, South and West... but if she joins this anti-Russian crusade, she has one enemy who is already bogged down in Scandinavia, the Caucuses, the Black Sea and if Austria joins, the Ukraine. She'd be a fool not to join and see what she can grab.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Prussia would enemies to the North, South and West... but if she joins this anti-Russian crusade, she has one enemy who is already bogged down in Scandinavia, the Caucuses, the Black Sea and if Austria joins, the Ukraine. She'd be a fool not to join and see what she can grab.

Of course an eastward looking Prussia would mean a lot of butterflies down the road.

 

[chris N]

Czar Nicholas was now finding that what had started out as a minor conflict was growing into a major one. He had hoped to be able to deal a major blow to the Ottoman Empire and perhaps achieve a long sought goal of Russia control of the Bosporus Straits. Now he was facing the might of the British Empire joined by France and their Scardinan Puppet.
Things were getting far worse as now there were reports that Swedish forces had landed in Finland along with British troops.
Russian agents in the Austro-Hungarian Empire reported that that country had also been contacted by the British and relations with it had grown very cold.

 

[chris N]

Britain and France continued to press the Russians in the Baltic. The British had agreed to provide a ground force to argument the Royal Swedish army. The force would include a Naval brigade and artillery to allow for the besieging of some of the Fortification.

 

[The Gunslinger]

Of course an eastward looking Prussia would mean a lot of butterflies down the road.

I could a see a Prussia paying more attention to the East and the Baltic coast. Prussia's domination of northern Germany is all but assured at this point. But she might not be too keen on further expansion south when she's busy keeping the Poles in check.

What happens in the Baltics is anyone's guess too. We'll have to see how the war plays out, but if everyone jumps on Russia there's a good chance the bear might just collapse under the might of a front stretching from Scandinavia to the Black Sea.

 

[Richter von Manthofen]

I don't think that A-H and Prussia are likely to join.

It will depend on the sucess of the northern force. If Russia manages to soundly beat a UK/Swedish Army the Allies sucesses in the Crimean area might be negated and Russia might come out even stronger than OTL.

Even the loss of the BAltic fleet might be a boon for Russia as it has to replace the losses - probably with modern iron hulls (La Gloire was built due to experiences in the Crimean war OTL)

THis might possibly lead to an earlier rise of the Dreadnought

But back to the main TL - if Russia sucessfully defends against the northern Part both Austria and Russia might again reconsider their position into a more friendly stance vs Russia (freeing more russian forces)

OTOH the Poles might try an uprising which migh further weaken the Russian Empire (A polish state between Germany and Russia might lead to a continued German/Russian friendship later in the century.

 

[The Gunslinger]

I don't think that A-H and Prussia are likely to join.

It will depend on the sucess of the northern force. If Russia manages to soundly beat a UK/Swedish Army the Allies sucesses in the Crimean area might be negated and Russia might come out even stronger than OTL.

Even the loss of the BAltic fleet might be a boon for Russia as it has to replace the losses - probably with modern iron hulls (La Gloire was built due to experiences in the Crimean war OTL)

THis might possibly lead to an earlier rise of the Dreadnought

But back to the main TL - if Russia sucessfully defends against the northern Part both Austria and Russia might again reconsider their position into a more friendly stance vs Russia (freeing more russian forces)

OTOH the Poles might try an uprising which migh further weaken the Russian Empire (A polish state between Germany and Russia might lead to a continued German/Russian friendship later in the century.

I think Prussia is the least likely to join. But even in OTL, Austria was never keen on Russian expansion in the Balkans and was deeply unimpressed with Russia's behaviour at the start of the war. The wikipedia is lacking, but I'm fairly sure she threatened to intervene before the end as well.

 

[Nassirisimo]

I think Prussia is the least likely to join. But even in OTL, Austria was never keen on Russian expansion in the Balkans and was deeply unimpressed with Russia's behaviour at the start of the war. The wikipedia is lacking, but I'm fairly sure she threatened to intervene before the end as well.

Well, the Austrian threat of intervention was one of the factors that lead to the Russian withdrawal from the Danubian Principalities. Austria herself hoped to gain some kind of role in the Danubian Principalities and may join the war for that. The Ottomans may be dissatisfied with this, but they held no real power over the principalities anyway, and they are better off in Hapsburg hands than Russian hands.

Also, Russia's goals in the war were not the conquest of the Bosphorus, and at any rate, the Crimean War was one of the most evenly balanced Russo-Turkish wars (not only due to British and French intervention) so I don't see it happening.

 

[The Gunslinger]

Well, the Austrian threat of intervention was one of the factors that lead to the Russian withdrawal from the Danubian Principalities. Austria herself hoped to gain some kind of role in the Danubian Principalities and may join the war for that. The Ottomans may be dissatisfied with this, but they held no real power over the principalities anyway, and they are better off in Hapsburg hands than Russian hands.

Also, Russia's goals in the war were not the conquest of the Bosphorus, and at any rate, the Crimean War was one of the most evenly balanced Russo-Turkish wars (not only due to British and French intervention) so I don't see it happening.

Austrian Ukraine or bust.

 

[chris N]

Britain was now applying both Naval an Military muscle to the war in the Baltic. it was the hope of the British and French governments that in carrying out the attack in the Baltic they could force the Imperial Russian government to bend to their will. Thus Britain was adding 12,000 troops to the 40-45,000 Swedish troops involved in the conflict. The combined British , french and Swedish fleet gave the allies total command of the sea.
Britain now struck at the Russian fortress that was under construction.

 

[False Dmitri]

How is British popular opinion going to react to such an expansion of the war? While most Britons felt that Russia was bad, most were quite ambivalent about the Crimean War, correct? 12,000 more to the Baltic are sure to make some people even more ambivalent... this in a time when popular opinion is starting to matter much more than before.

 

[chris N]

Actually these are the amount of troops that were sent into the Baltic in OTL and since there were not any heavy loses there was never the negative reaction that the conflict in the Crimea bought.
Below the British troops sent to the Baltic

 

[chris N]

The British Government was now hoping that its strategy of getting Sweden to enter the war might help to end the war. Between the British, French and Swedish ground forces it was hoped that they might be able to grab a siezeable portion of Finland. The allies had complete Naval superiority in the Baltic. Talks with the Austrian and Prussian governments seemed to have made some progress but there was a question might the British and French cause more problems for the Russians by smuggling arms into Russian controlled Poland. A massive Uprising there could cause major problems for the Russian Bear.

 

[The Gunslinger]

The British Government was now hoping that its strategy of getting Sweden to enter the war might help to end the war. Between the British, French and Swedish ground forces it was hoped that they might be able to grab a siezeable portion of Finland. The allies had complete Naval superiority in the Baltic. Talks with the Austrian and Prussian governments seemed to have made some progress but there was a question might the British and French cause more problems for the Russians by smuggling arms into Russian controlled Poland. A massive Uprising there could cause major problems for the Russian Bear.

I guess you COULD do that, if you wanted to piss off the Prussians for the next 60 years, and maybe the Austrians too (since they just finished dealing with the Hungarians). Not a smart move on the allies part.

 

[chris N]

As for smuggling the arms in to Poland much would depend upon what the Austrians and Prussians do. if they are going to sit back and do nothing then it might not matter. Besides another nation that might support the idea is France. France is no friend of the Prussians. Still at this point no decision has been made to actually do the deed.