Sweden conquers Novgorod in 1240's

Sweden was after the mouth of the Neva rived and tolls on Russian trade, not Novgorod itself. Sweden hardly has the resources to conquer Novgorod itself in this era.
 
Sweden was after the mouth of the Neva rived and tolls on Russian trade, not Novgorod itself. Sweden hardly has the resources to conquer Novgorod itself in this era.

What if they did it jointly with the Teutonic knights, If Alexander Nevesky were kill couldn't that lead to a fall of Novgorod.
 
What if they did it jointly with the Teutonic knights, If Alexander Nevesky were kill couldn't that lead to a fall of Novgorod.

Probably more likely vassalage. As von Adler stated, Sweden was only after limited goals. I don't think the Knights, either by themselves or in concert could digest Novgorod in outright conquest. The western border lands taken and the Gulf of Finland coast, yes. The Swedes were furthermore very distracted by domestic concerns --- they were in fact, in a state of civil war in this period. This last fact has made many historians leery about the claims of Neva even being more than a minor battle pumped up by patriotic revision.
 
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Alkahest

Banned
A crippled Novgorod would have very interesting consequences for the 14th and the rest of the 13th century. I can see both Sweden and the Teutonic Order benefiting - although an interesting idea would be if pagan Lithuania managed to move in on Novgorodian territory. In that case, I think we might see an Orthodox Lithuania eventually.
 
Probably more likely vassalage. As von Adler stated, Sweden was only after limited goals. I don't think the Knights, either by themselves or in concert could digest Novgorod in outright conquest. The western border lands taken and the Gulf of Finland coast, yes. The Swedes were furthermore very distracted by domestic concerns --- they were in fact, in a state of civil war in this period. This last fact has made many historians leery about the claims of Neva even being more than a minor battle pumped up by patriotic revision.

Distracted by domestic concerns is sort of an admission of how things will always be in a feudal state with a weak central power. This particular period wasnt any worse than others however. What civil war are you talking about? In 1240 the kingdom was relatively peaceful as far as I can tell.
 
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Sweden was after the mouth of the Neva rived and tolls on Russian trade, not Novgorod itself. Sweden hardly has the resources to conquer Novgorod itself in this era.

Indeed. Earlier aquisition of Karelia and Ingria represents a best case scenario and I think they´d be hard pressed to hold on to even that. A weak Novgorod might aid them in that however since most of the northern russian principalities are going to have bigger issues soon enough.
 
Distracted by domestic concerns is sort of an admission of how things will always be in a feudal state with a weak central power. This particular period wasnt any worse than others however. What civil war are you talking about? In 1240 the kingdom was relatively peaceful as far as I can tell.

Besides this:
Since the death of King John in 1222, Sweden was in a de facto state of civil war until 1248 when Birger Jarl managed to seize power in the kingdom. Unrest was due to the struggle between those who wanted to keep the old tribal structure, the folkung party, and the king, who was assisted by the church. Folkungs, who were mainly from Uppland, heavily resisted the centralization of power, taxation of the Swedes of Uppland,and church privileges. They had temporarily succeeded in deposing the king in 1229, but were forced to give in five years later, but were far from defeated yet. Uppland remained largely independent of the king, and its northern areas continued to be in folkung hands. An uneasy truce continued until 1247, when the folkung rebellion was put to an end at the Battle of Sparrsätra and its leader beheaded a year later.
mentioned as context to the Battle of Neva--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Neva
There was also the threat of impending conflict with Norway until 1249.
So, a "peaceful" Sweden is a relative term.
 
Yep pretty much par for the time in Sweden. And not so much civil war as powerful families fighting each other for de facto control over the kingdom. Its not like these sort of revolts were rare at anytime really. Read about any kings annals and you´ll see revolts by powerful nobility. The fact that the throne was elective didnt help much. Of course this didnt mean the entire realm was burning.
 
Yep pretty much par for the time in Sweden. And not so much civil war as powerful families fighting each other for de facto control over the kingdom. Its not like these sort of revolts were rare at anytime really. Read about any kings annals and you´ll see revolts by powerful nobility. The fact that the throne was elective didnt help much. Of course this didnt mean the entire realm was burning.

It just precluded major efforts by Sweden in the Eastern arena, except by magnates, a specific powerful ecclesiastic or noble family, in more opportunistic piecemeal efforts, until later in Sweden's history.
 
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