Surviving Principality of Gwynedd?

It has been noted by many historians that by the time of its final defeat at the hands of Edward I, Gwynedd has begun the process of Europeanisation that Scotland and Brandenburg had already committed themselves to a hundred years before.

Thus Robert Bartlett suggests that if Gwynedd had been given more time (or began reforming military and legislatively sooner) than it could have survived. Of course a major problem with that thesis (which he admits) is that North Wales is right beside one of the core areas of Latin Europe, England, while Brandenburg and Scotland were far further out geographically from the core.

So, AH.com the question I ask is "Can we Save the Principality of Gwynedd?" Do we need a POD before the Norman conquest or do you think Gwynedd can survive even after the Normans cement their hold on England?

Any thoughts?
 
I believe this could be pulled off as late as the 1200's. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth was keenly aware of the problems that faced Gwynedd and resolved to do away with them, which worked as long as he was alive but unfortunately his eldest son Gruffydd was a bit of a dick. That said, you could even have Gruffydd's son Llyewlyn pull this off by dealing with his brothers Owain and Dafydd more decisively. I actually tried to start a TL that had this as the premise, with the butterflies resulting in the Second Baron's War in England lasting longer and starting another period of anarchy with the deaths of Henry III and Edward I.

So yeah, I think the pessimism that puts Wales as a doomed country since the French took the throne of England is pretty unfounded.
 
Well they did actually unify a bit. The Llywelyns I mentioned previously were able to make vassals or allies of most of Wales, the second one actually being formally recognized as Prince of Wales by the king of England.
 
The biggest single problem Wales had was the splitting of holdings. Every time it unified, it split up again in a generation or two.

Theyve GOT to keep land together, somehow if the want to survive. Primogeniture like most of Europe works, Tanistry (ruler choses one heir) like the Irish kingdoms used could work. Electing a monarch like many countries nominally did might possibly work. Splitting the country up into microstatelets is a recipe for disaster.
 
The biggest single problem Wales had was the splitting of holdings. Every time it unified, it split up again in a generation or two.

Theyve GOT to keep land together, somehow if the want to survive. Primogeniture like most of Europe works, Tanistry (ruler choses one heir) like the Irish kingdoms used could work. Electing a monarch like many countries nominally did might possibly work. Splitting the country up into microstatelets is a recipe for disaster.

Perhaps we need to have some Frankish/Norman nobles invited in by a prince of Gwynedd so as to introduce Latin social norms? Though unlike Scotland they are far nearer the core of Norman power so they would unfortunately wish to increase their differences from the Normans rather than blur them...

Maybe if we could get the Welsh church more in line with the rest of Western Europe that might prove as a modernizing force?
 
Perhaps we need to have some Frankish/Norman nobles invited in by a prince of Gwynedd so as to introduce Latin social norms? Though unlike Scotland they are far nearer the core of Norman power so they would unfortunately wish to increase their differences from the Normans rather than blur them...

Maybe if we could get the Welsh church more in line with the rest of Western Europe that might prove as a modernizing force?
Princes of Gwynedd IOTL saw the need for a single heir, namely Llywelyn ap Iorwerth as I've already mentioned, though I should've been more specific. He was aware that splitting his holdings was a bad idea, especially as he had just united most of Wales, so he designated his son by an English princess as his sole heir, which pissed off his eldest son who allied with the English (and ultimately died in their captivity for his troubles). That guy's younger son Llywelyn was of a similar view to the grandfather he was named after and would've done the same if he lived longer.

The latest possible POD to use to save Gwynedd could be as late as the mid-1200's. It requires a change to the Battle of Eversham in which the leader of the baronial alliance Simon de Montfort lost his life. If England remained so divided, the united Principality of Wales (which would in the next few years receive formal recognition under Prince Llywelyn) has breathing room and a fighting chance. It helped that Llywelyn wed the daughter of Simon de Montfort and was a friend and ally.
 
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