Surviving New France and consquences

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The Ubbergeek

As it says... Sorry, I would have revived or updated a topic instead, but the search feature got an allergy to words like 'New France' or 'Nouvelle-France'. :(

Two parts discussions.

How to make it survive, how to strenghten it, so it at least live along british colonies, if it is possible...

-A more dedicated colonisation, with farming as an ideal? Could the 'colonisation ideal' of Curé Labelle existe in an earlier form in those days, a sort of Catholic 'Puritanism' maybe?

-Opening the colonie(s) to protestants (hugenots) and non-french, like fleeting british catholics, swisses, future-belgians...?

-What if the officials and colons went REALLY for 'Champlain's dream', and took natives as wives?

-else?



And second, if it at least live longer, what are the effects of a stronger, longer lived or permanant New France on...

-the 'metropole'? Would it be a drain to royal-state treasury? or it could be positive on direct economy? Would it push the population toward a Revolution, or the opposite, drain some.. steam away?

-what would be the effects on the Thirteen COlonies? more fear?

Would a stronger New France drains possible imigrants?

-What on the Canadiens themselves? Would it change the ATL ancestors?

Is the colony(ies) doomed anyway at one moment, or it could live to modern days - untill... lower...

How would the french rule end, if at all? a decolonisation process, gradual, or.. a Révolution Canadienne, as well? It was hinted the two started to grow distant, like britishes and americans...
 
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Last of the Stuarts

One way for the colony to get more people is to use the British way of sending their prisoners overseas. This will boost the numbers of colonists as well as syphoning off the more troublesome political prisoners who could forment trouble at home.

I am not sure about taking native wives, but the number of colonists who take families with them must increase some how. Prehaps a "families go free" offer, or an offer of land for all not just the males would increase the numbers enough to make the colonies viable.

Given the French king's attitude to non Catholics I can't see them being able to colonise any territory that the French King claimed.

Once you have a viable colony then it needs defending, and given the British domination at sea this will mean land forces in number as well as fortifications and artillary. In the short term this will be a drain on the home finances (as it was for the Brits in the 13 colonies). Since France had chaotic finances this could have brought the revoluation around sooner.

An interesting way of getting the colony to survive into the modern day would be for them to support the king in the revolution and have the Royal Family flee to Canada rather than Britain (as the Portugese king did to Brazil). This would side Canada with the British against the French and North Americans in 1800-1815.
 

mrmandias

Assuming there's still an American Revolution, and it succeeds, a world with a royalist New France will likely lead to greater US centralization and military investment.
 

The Ubbergeek

Interesting ideas. :)

I have seen one tl (at least) with France gaining actually an upper hand toward England in India. Can it be done the same world ? Would a stronger New France make warfare in India easier, or harder? And would a french india (or parts) could help in the long run in America?

I was told India was the jewel of all the empire, the most worthy part economicaly... so...
 

The Ubbergeek

Elfwine said:
A huge problem: http://www.worsleyschool.net/socialarts/shield/canadianshield.html

The area isn't completely worthless, but it is even less attractive than the Great American Desert in some ways.

This will make milking much wealth from it as a colony (or developing it from its own resources) difficult.
Click to expand...

You do realise New France is not much this, but place like the Valley of the Saint-Lawrence, a very fertile place? The climate is rough yes, but my ancestors found that you can feed yourself well with efforts.
 

Elfwine

The Ubbergeek said:
You do realise New France is not much this, but place like the Valley of the Saint-Lawrence, a very fertile place? The climate is rough yes, but my ancestors found that you can feed yourself well with efforts.
Click to expand...

Well, if New France continues to exist, it seems likely that the issue of western settlement will come up sooner or latter just as it did when Britain took Canada.

Thus bringing up the Shield. Even if the Valley is as good as one could reasonably hope for.
 

The Ubbergeek

Elfwine said:
Well, if New France continues to exist, it seems likely that the issue of western settlement will come up sooner or latter just as it did when Britain took Canada.

Thus bringing up the Shield. Even if the Valley is as good as one could reasonably hope for.
Click to expand...

Maybe I am wrong, but again, the territory of New France didn't actually go much into The Shield, going *south* into a path into modern american West, down to Lousiana.

Some fine lands are there actually, no? The problem is more, how to occupate, AND DEFEND them.

No personal offence, but maybe you don't know the boundaries of the french colonies; I admit I need to find a map myself., But from what I remember, it didn't go too far north.
 

Elfwine

The Ubbergeek said:
Maybe I am wrong, but again, the territory of New France didn't actually go much into The Shield, going *south* into a path into modern american West, down to Lousiana.

Some fine lands are there actually, no? The problem is more, how to occupate, AND DEFEND them.
Click to expand...

The point is that New France is likely to extend beyond its original borders in a situation like you're proposing, the same way the British American colonies did or anything else where there was the opportunity.

No personal offence, but maybe you don't know the boundaries of the french colonies; I admit I need to find a map myself., But from what I remember, it didn't go too far north.
Click to expand...
Not particularly well, no. And none taken.

I'm looking at the shield as a barrier to the west, not so much the north.

Wiki map (until better is found): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nouvelle-France_map-en.svg

Is "New France" the whole thing, or just the Canadian part? My impression (and observation - its not firm enough to call it an argument) is based on it being the Canadian part, with Louisiana (including Upper Louisiana) falling or not being separate from your question.

If its that whole area of French territory, settling it is the main problem, finding places worth settling won't be too hard - and thus New France is in a much better position. A bit large and hard to manage, but in a sense the US was - should be fine if it isn't seized.
 

The Ubbergeek

My topic is rather large. Maybe it would be best if France accept by example a lost of territory, as it was...a large ensemble. Maybe France was too 'greedy'.
And so, refocus to a more defendable core, like... What is now Quebec and Ontario and Maritimes, and Louisiana.
 

Elfwine

The Ubbergeek said:
My topic is rather large. Maybe it would be best if France accept by example a lost of territory, as it was...a large ensemble. Maybe France was too 'greedy'.
And so, refocus to a more defendable core, like... What is now Quebec and Ontario and Maritimes, and Louisiana.
Click to expand...

Not sure that's necessary. If France can do better, its not really that big a deal to defend it.

That is, France doing better in ways that would lead to it holding on to this territory instead of bargaining with Britain over it.

But it might be easier to govern that way. Communications up to the telegraph and steam engine are kind of slow, and that's not good.

The US managed to deal, but the US has been favored by good luck.
 

The Ubbergeek

I forgot who held Swisterland and the future Belgium in that era... I wonder if there could be settlers from there, francophones allowed in.
 

dgharis

The Ubbergeek said:
As it says... Sorry, I would have revived or updated a topic instead, but the search feature got an allergy to words like 'New France' or 'Nouvelle-France'. :(

Two parts discussions.

How to make it survive, how to strenghten it, so it at least live along british colonies, if it is possible...

-A more dedicated colonisation, with farming as an ideal? Could the 'colonisation ideal' of Curé Labelle existe in an earlier form in those days, a sort of Catholic 'Puritanism' maybe?

-Opening the colonie(s) to protestants (hugenots) and non-french, like fleeting british catholics, swisses, future-belgians...?

-What if the officials and colons went REALLY for 'Champlain's dream', and took natives as wives?

-else?



And second, if it at least live longer, what are the effects of a stronger, longer lived or permanant New France on...

-the 'metropole'? Would it be a drain to royal-state treasury? or it could be positive on direct economy? Would it push the population toward a Revolution, or the opposite, drain some.. steam away?

-what would be the effects on the Thirteen COlonies? more fear?

Would a stronger New France drains possible imigrants?

-What on the Canadiens themselves? Would it change the ATL ancestors?

Is the colony(ies) doomed anyway at one moment, or it could live to modern days - untill... lower...

How would the french rule end, if at all? a decolonisation process, gradual, or.. a Révolution Canadienne, as well? It was hinted the two started to grow distant, like britishes and americans...
Click to expand...

Funny you should mention this. I was brainstorming writing just such a TL, starting with Louis XIV writing a slightly different Edict of Fontainebleu in which Huguenots are banned from France proper but permitted in the coolonies. New France's main problem was always that it was severely underpopulated compared to the English colonies to their south; in 1754 there were 70,000 people in New France, compared to nearly 1 million in the Englilsh colonies, a disparity of 15 to 1.

But if Huguenots are "encouraged" to come to New France and the other colonies by being kicked out of France, that will help solve that problem. And since the Huguenots contain a disproportionate number of craftsmen and tradesmen, which New France lacks, that will help it to become self sufficient as well. New France in OTL imported almost every necessity from the mother country, not excepting food in some years. Any interruption of the flow, which occured every time Britain and France were at war, meant hardship for New France.

That's not enough, though. IOTL the British enjoyed almost total command of the seas and could bring enough force to bear on New France to conquer it any time they chose. So we also need to offset that advantage, by creating a better French Navy and engaging allies to distract the British. We also need to make sure New France receives its fair share of resources; IOTL it was often neglected in favor of the more profitable West Indies and India.

These changes make New France better able to take care of itself and the British less able to bring force to bear on it. Whether that will be enough to preserve it is still in doubt, but at least this way it has a fighting chance.
 
Xgentis

Xgentis

France has to watch it's borders as well investing in a big army and a big navy at the same time would be really difficult especially with the way the french did their finance.
 

dgharis

Xgentis said:
France has to watch it's borders as well investing in a big army and a big navy at the same time would be really difficult especially with the way the french did their finance.
Click to expand...

Basically my POD is a wiser, humbler Louis XIV. Given that, a less aggressive stance toward the other continental powers will lessen the need for a large army and release more resources for the navy. His goal of reaching the 'natural frontiers' can be delayed somewhat until he gets his house more in order, which includes sorting out the finances a bit.
 

Elfwine

dgharis said:
Basically my POD is a wiser, humbler Louis XIV. Given that, a less aggressive stance toward the other continental powers will lessen the need for a large army and release more resources for the navy. His goal of reaching the 'natural frontiers' can be delayed somewhat until he gets his house more in order, which includes sorting out the finances a bit.
Click to expand...

The sad part is that Louis did think his finances were in order - and to a point he was right.
 
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