Surviving House of Luxembourg

By House of Luxembourg I mean main line of Dynasty (Bohemian-Hungarian-Imperial not their poor cousins of Saint-Pol), with latest possible POD (so Sigismund of Luxembourg has second child with Barbara of Cili, son born during second decade of 15th century). What would be consequences? House of Luxembourg would partially take place of OTL Habsburgs (who are not going to rise in importance without Imperial title returning to them) but not exactly-House of Luxembourg dominated HRE since times of Charles IV but had no stricte German lands under their rule. Their power base was Bohemia and Hungary, in both kingdoms their position was weakened (in Bohemia by Hussite Wars, in Hungary by childless death of Sigismund's first wife Mary d'Anjou) and they were endangered by Ottoman expansion. Not counting episone of Albert II's rule Hungary was outside control of House of Habsburg or at least Imperial branch of House of Habsburg until Ferdinand I. ITTL Holy Roman Emperors would be thus much more busy in Hungary and Balkans,thus less active on other fronts (especially in Italy) and would not have that much conflict of interests with France. Having their core practically outside Germany, wouldn't Luxembourgs lose Imperial title eventually? There is big chance that later generations of Luxembourg dynasty would end Hungarianized.
 

Azum

Donor
Im assuming their powerbase would be Bohemia, its more connected with the HRE.

If they keep warring with the Ottomans(the enemies of the Church) they won't have much problems with the clerical votes for emperorship, with Bohemia's vote its guaranteed. Although this child of Sigismund would be a very young emperor, if Sig dies at OTL timing.
At the very least i see them maintaining it without trouble until protestantism hits.

Much of HRE's fate will depend on its western border, Habsburgs were busying themselves with Hungary too much for any OTL fate to be considered. No Hunyadi&Corvinus, I doubt Burgundy will rise.
 

krieger

Banned
By House of Luxembourg I mean main line of Dynasty (Bohemian-Hungarian-Imperial not their poor cousins of Saint-Pol), with latest possible POD (so Sigismund of Luxembourg has second child with Barbara of Cili, son born during second decade of 15th century). What would be consequences? House of Luxembourg would partially take place of OTL Habsburgs (who are not going to rise in importance without Imperial title returning to them) but not exactly-House of Luxembourg dominated HRE since times of Charles IV but had no stricte German lands under their rule. Their power base was Bohemia and Hungary, in both kingdoms their position was weakened (in Bohemia by Hussite Wars, in Hungary by childless death of Sigismund's first wife Mary d'Anjou) and they were endangered by Ottoman expansion. Not counting episone of Albert II's rule Hungary was outside control of House of Habsburg or at least Imperial branch of House of Habsburg until Ferdinand I. ITTL Holy Roman Emperors would be thus much more busy in Hungary and Balkans,thus less active on other fronts (especially in Italy) and would not have that much conflict of interests with France. Having their core practically outside Germany, wouldn't Luxembourgs lose Imperial title eventually? There is big chance that later generations of Luxembourg dynasty would end Hungarianized.

Imperial title wasn't tied to being "German" in ethnical sense - House of Luxembourg wasn't culturally "German" to begin with - Henry VII's native language was French, he learned German as an adult man. Calling Henry VII of Luxembourg a "German" is a generous statement - it is like claiming that Miroslav Klose is a Pole only because his father was one :) John of Luxembourg was raised on a French court and married Bohemian princes. Charles was raised in France and Bohemia and neither of his wives, who bore him children was German. Wenceslas was 100% Bohemian in culture, and Sigismund was raised in Poland and Hungary. I think as long as Luxembourgs have Bohemian throne and support of ecclesiastical electors, they won't lose Imperial dignity. We can also add a new position on the list of Luxembourg's enemies - Poland. Luxembourgs supported TO and in addition, children of Sigismund have better claim to Polish throne than Jagiellons :) Lack of Albert II on the thrones of Bohemia and Hungary also means that Vladislaus III (OTL of Varna) is going to be alive and stay in Cracow longer, which won't do any good to Jagiellons. ITTL when Vladislaus isn't busy with Hungary, he can instead invade Lithuania as soon as he acknowledges his brother being made a Grand Duke by Lithuanians. War between Jagiellon brothers is perfect opportunity for Luxembourgs to claim Poland.
 
Imperial title wasn't tied to being "German" in ethnical sense - House of Luxembourg wasn't culturally "German" to begin with - Henry VII's native language was French, he learned German as an adult man. Calling Henry VII of Luxembourg a "German" is a generous statement - it is like claiming that Miroslav Klose is a Pole only because his father was one :) John of Luxembourg was raised on a French court and married Bohemian princes. Charles was raised in France and Bohemia and neither of his wives, who bore him children was German. Wenceslas was 100% Bohemian in culture, and Sigismund was raised in Poland and Hungary. I think as long as Luxembourgs have Bohemian throne and support of ecclesiastical electors, they won't lose Imperial dignity. We can also add a new position on the list of Luxembourg's enemies - Poland. Luxembourgs supported TO and in addition, children of Sigismund have better claim to Polish throne than Jagiellons :) Lack of Albert II on the thrones of Bohemia and Hungary also means that Vladislaus III (OTL of Varna) is going to be alive and stay in Cracow longer, which won't do any good to Jagiellons. ITTL when Vladislaus isn't busy with Hungary, he can instead invade Lithuania as soon as he acknowledges his brother being made a Grand Duke by Lithuanians. War between Jagiellon brothers is perfect opportunity for Luxembourgs to claim Poland.
Without empty throne in Buda Władysław III aftet death of Žygimantas Kęstutaitis would go to Vilnius with his brother (or instead of brother) so OTL situation in Lithuania would not look like IOTL. Władysław would need to negotiate with Lithuanians personally.
 

krieger

Banned
Without empty throne in Buda Władysław III aftet death of Žygimantas Kęstutaitis would go to Vilnius with his brother (or instead of brother) so OTL situation in Lithuania would not look like IOTL. Władysław would need to negotiate with Lithuanians personally.

With all his recklessness, I imagine that he'll demand Lithuanians to accept whatever governor he'll send to them.
 

krieger

Banned
He could be imprisoned (like Jogaila was by Švitrigaila) or even poisoned/assassinated by Lithuanians if they see that compromise with him is impossible.
@Augenis

Or war could break out. From Vladislaus's POV he is only enacting existing law. Svitrigaila was defeated, so why should he be afraid? Why shouldn't he bring his unruly subjects to fullfill their duty by force?
 
Władysław consulted his decision about making Kazimierz his governor in Lithuania with Polish Royal council (which would not be present in Vilnius) and Lithuanians would rather not proclaim Kazimierz grand duke against will of Władysław in his presence. There would be prolonged negotiations, but OTL result is hardly possible.
 
Or war could break out. From Vladislaus's POV he is only enacting existing law. Svitrigaila was defeated, so why should he be afraid? Why shouldn't he bring his unruly subjects to fullfill their duty by force?
Švitriga was replaced as Grand Duke by Žygimantas, not by Jogaila. After Civil War Lithuanians still have separate Grand Duke.
 

krieger

Banned
Władysław consulted his decision about making Kazimierz his governor in Lithuania with Polish Royal council (which would not be present in Vilnius) and Lithuanians would rather not proclaim Kazimierz grand duke against will of Władysław in his presence. There would be prolonged negotiations, but OTL result is hardly possible.

I didn't deny this, but I doubt if Vladislaus, after his childhood was shaped by war with Svitrigaila, would be very willing to grant Lithuanians high level of autonomy.
 
Imperial title wasn't tied to being "German" in ethnical sense - House of Luxembourg wasn't culturally "German" to begin with - Henry VII's native language was French, he learned German as an adult man. Calling Henry VII of Luxembourg a "German" is a generous statement - it is like claiming that Miroslav Klose is a Pole only because his father was one :) John of Luxembourg was raised on a French court and married Bohemian princes. Charles was raised in France and Bohemia and neither of his wives, who bore him children was German. Wenceslas was 100% Bohemian in culture, and Sigismund was raised in Poland and Hungary. I think as long as Luxembourgs have Bohemian throne and support of ecclesiastical electors, they won't lose Imperial dignity. We can also add a new position on the list of Luxembourg's enemies - Poland. Luxembourgs supported TO and in addition, children of Sigismund have better claim to Polish throne than Jagiellons :) Lack of Albert II on the thrones of Bohemia and Hungary also means that Vladislaus III (OTL of Varna) is going to be alive and stay in Cracow longer, which won't do any good to Jagiellons. ITTL when Vladislaus isn't busy with Hungary, he can instead invade Lithuania as soon as he acknowledges his brother being made a Grand Duke by Lithuanians. War between Jagiellon brothers is perfect opportunity for Luxembourgs to claim Poland.
Sigismung (and his successors) have way too many problems south (the Ottomans) and west (the Hussites and the Empire in general) to even consider conquering Poland, Sigismund himself never showed any interest in claiming Poland IOTL, he was too deep in debt for a senseless campaign with little to no benefit.
 
Sigismung (and his successors) have way too many problems south (the Ottomans) and west (the Hussites and the Empire in general) to even consider conquering Poland, Sigismund himself never showed any interest in claiming Poland IOTL, he was too deep in debt for a senseless campaign with little to no benefit.
This. Luxembourgs would be desperate trying to survive against Ottoman expansion. IOTL Ladislaus the Posthumous sympathised with Teutonic Order during 13 Years War but did nothing to help Teutonic Knights, Ottomans consumed all all attention of Hungary.
 
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Are you open to an earlier POD?

Here is what I had in mind:

The birth order of the Children of OTL Charles III of Naples is reversed, such that his oldest child is Ladislaus, who, despite being a few years older than his OTL counterpart, is very much the same person. Due to butterflies, Catherine of Hungary lives to adulthood, and marries TTL's Ladislaus, making him King of Hungary in right of his wife. Thus, Sigismund and Mary end up with Poland, and, due to butterflies, she gives birth to a healthy baby boy. The Luxembourgs continue in the HRE and Poland, while the Angevins last longer in Hungary and get the brunt of the Ottoman incursions, which may or may not be as successful in this timeline.
 
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Are you open to an earlier POD?

Here is what I had in mind:

The birth order of the Children of OTL Charles III of Naples is reversed, such that his oldest child is Ladislaus, who, despite being a few years older than his OTL counterpart, is very much the same person. Due to butterflies, Catherine of Hungary lives to adulthood, and marries TTL's Ladislaus, making him King of Hungary in right of his wife. Thus, Sigismund and Mary end up with Poland, and, due to butterflies, she gives birth to a healthy baby boy. The Luxembourgs continue in the HRE and Poland, while the Angevins last longer in Hungary and get the brunt of the Ottoman incursions, which may or may not be as successful in this timeline.
Interesting option, although I'd preffer the one with Luxembourg Hungary (so Sigismund has a son, born in, say, 1412).
Władysław III was born long after POD, so to not distract attention from Luxembourgs to Jagiellons lets assume, that ATL Władysław III is more willing for compromise and after long negotiations in Vilnius accepts his younger brother as Grand Duke, keeping title of Supreme Duke and right to decide who should be next Grand Duke if Kazimierz dies.
 

krieger

Banned
Sigismung (and his successors) have way too many problems south (the Ottomans) and west (the Hussites and the Empire in general) to even consider conquering Poland, Sigismund himself never showed any interest in claiming Poland IOTL, he was too deep in debt for a senseless campaign with little to no benefit.

Except that he did, in 1396 he issued a document for Vladislaus of Opole, in which he called himself "rightful king of Poland.
 
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