Surviving Hapsburg Netherlands?

HJ Tulp

Donor
As far as I know the truce ended about the time when Albert died... So recognition of the king of Spain as sovereign most likely won't happen, but an independent (independent from Spain not the Empire;)) sovereign of the Habsburg Netherlands might have a somewhat better change. OTOH a more likely POD would have been in a period where the generation of William the Silent was still around, well at least with respect to the leadership in the Northern Netherlands...

In 1621 the Republic is to used to independence. The only way they are going to give that up is if it's nothing but a piece of paper with no consequences and a GIGANTIC amount of concessions to which the Crown would never be able to agree to. A POD going back to the time such a thing was possible would certainly butterfly away the rule of Albert and Isabella.

Furthermore there were more reasons why the truce ended, than just the sovereignty question. There were trade disputes; and the position of Catholics in the Northern Netherlands and the position of protestants in the Southern Netherlands...

Reading Wiki (which has made clear to me that I really need to read a serious non-Dutch book on the 80 years war) the mentioning of such a solution was the primary reason for the truce-talks to break down.
 
You didn't, I was referring to emperor Frederick III; and the OTL Valois dukes of Burgundy preferred to be truely independent kings, which the emperor couldn't and wouldn't do. So what I meant was that Frederick III could make the Valois dukes of Burgundy a king with the empire and emperor as suzerain(or liege lord)* and that he needed no one's (princes of the empire) permission to do so; but he couldn't make them independent kings (the Burgundian territories were either imperial or French fiefs).

Ah, sorry then, I misunderstood. Now if the emperor can give the title for a king with the emperor as suzerain, which likely is what the new Hapsburgs want anyway, we could take this as granted to happen sooner or later.

Competition among the branches is really an interesting idea. The new Hapsburg branch would be one of the richest and most powerful families in the Empire, and closely related to the currently ruling house. Definitely a candidate for Emperor.
 
Ah, sorry then, I misunderstood. Now if the emperor can give the title for a king with the emperor as suzerain, which likely is what the new Hapsburgs want anyway, we could take this as granted to happen sooner or later.

Competition among the branches is really an interesting idea. The new Hapsburg branch would be one of the richest and most powerful families in the Empire, and closely related to the currently ruling house. Definitely a candidate for Emperor.

I wouldn't go that far, but they probably would have the best chance of success. However it will take long negotiations and concessions to the emperor and (at least) other imperial states (for recognition*), so you'll need a ruler, who's really desperate for a promotion, (and/or) a brilliant negotiator (which in the early stages (of the negotiations) are representatives of their rulers) and/or the emperor is in serious need of help.
Concluding a emperor has the power to grant a royal crown, but even a relative has to give something in return to the emperor.

(*= this recognition is also an issue with foreign countries, but at least with respect to the Catholic countries Papal recognition would give an advantage (but protestant countries wouldn't care less, but they will give support depending on the political situation)).
 
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In 1621 the Republic is to used to independence. The only way they are going to give that up is if it's nothing but a piece of paper with no consequences and a GIGANTIC amount of concessions to which the Crown would never be able to agree to. A POD going back to the time such a thing was possible would certainly butterfly away the rule of Albert and Isabella.



Reading Wiki (which has made clear to me that I really need to read a serious non-Dutch book on the 80 years war) the mentioning of such a solution was the primary reason for the truce-talks to break down.

I do not totally agree with that, yes you might end up with different rulers, but this outcome might convice Philip that the Burgundian circle is better off independent from 'Spain' ruled by a cadet branch of his house (Habsburg).
 
Reading Wiki (which has made clear to me that I really need to read a serious non-Dutch book on the 80 years war) the mentioning of such a solution was the primary reason for the truce-talks to break down.
Try Jonathan Israel's The Dutch Republic; it's quite good up to the 18th century. It's even translated to Dutch for our convenience.
 
In 1621 the Republic is to used to independence. The only way they are going to give that up is if it's nothing but a piece of paper with no consequences and a GIGANTIC amount of concessions to which the Crown would never be able to agree to. A POD going back to the time such a thing was possible would certainly butterfly away the rule of Albert and Isabella.



Reading Wiki (which has made clear to me that I really need to read a serious non-Dutch book on the 80 years war) the mentioning of such a solution was the primary reason for the truce-talks to break down.

I partly know what you mean, for instance reading translated Spain sources brings a lot of nuance. Although since I'm a descendant from Dutch Catholics (Catholics in an officially protestant country) from the Dutch generality land (NO (not even protestants) representation in the Dutch Estates General) Brabant* (* = before that the entire duchy of Brabant had a golden age), the 80 years war or ''the revolt'' never was that glorious as for some of my fellow (protestant and/or non generality land) Dutchmen.

Note: the Generality Lands existed in the period of the Repblic of the Seven United Netherlands, these regions got equal rights (and representation) in the period of the Batavian Republic (so from that time they became full 'members'of the Netherlands).
 
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I partly know what you mean, for instance reading translated Spain sources brings a lot of nuance. Although since I'm a descendant from Dutch Catholics (Catholics in an officially protestant country) from the Dutch generality land (NO (not even protestants) representation in the Dutch Estates General) Brabant* (* = before that the entire duchy of Brabant had a golden age), the 80 years war or the revolt never was that glorious as for some of my fellow (protestant and/or non generality land) Dutchmen.
Well, you have to realise a couple of things. First of all your relatives (and half of my relatives btw) were allowed to be catholics in a protestant Netherlands, while protestants weren't allowed to be protestants in a catholic Spain/Netherlands. Just compare the number of Catholics in the Netherlands (even ignoring Limburg, which was only partly Dutch) with the number of protestants in Belgium. There are almost no protestants in Belgium, eventhough the Dutch reformation started in Flanders, while there are many catholics in the Netherlands, even many in Holland (and they aren't all imigrants, Volendam is traditionaly a catholic town).

Also not being represented in the estate General wasn't really nice, but this was the age of absolute monarchs. It was unique in the world that there even was representation. Not that it was very democratic; the Estate-General consisted mainly out of very rich merchants out of Holland. The other provinces barely had any influence at all.
 
Well, you have to realise a couple of things. First of all your relatives (and half of my relatives btw) were allowed to be catholics in a protestant Netherlands, while protestants weren't allowed to be protestants in a catholic Spain/Netherlands. Just compare the number of Catholics in the Netherlands (even ignoring Limburg, which was only partly Dutch) with the number of protestants in Belgium. There are almost no protestants in Belgium, eventhough the Dutch reformation started in Flanders, while there are many catholics in the Netherlands, even many in Holland (and they aren't all imigrants, Volendam is traditionaly a catholic town).

Also not being represented in the estate General wasn't really nice, but this was the age of absolute monarchs. It was unique in the world that there even was representation. Not that it was very democratic; the Estate-General consisted mainly out of very rich merchants out of Holland. The other provinces barely had any influence at all.

You don't have to lecture me about the policies and consequences of the Generality Lands, my Catholic ancestors may have been better off than protestants in catholic countries, but that certainly isn't going to make the 80 years war as glorious as for some of my fellow(but protestant) Dutchmen.
BTW I'm not blaming them, but I don't share these feelings about this period.
Frankly the period from the Dutch republic until the Batavian Republic** wasn't a golden age* for the Dutch Catholics (*= although in reality it was only a relatively small group within the larger group of protestants which profited).
OTOH(the entire duchy of) Brabant had a golden age until the the Dutch revolt (from which in reality only a small group profited, similar to the later golden age in the Dutch Republic (mostly in the county of Holland)), which by contrast turns the period of the Generality Lands (for the Northern half of Brabant) and the fall of Antwerp etc. (Southern half of Brabant) into a dark age.
Furthermore I mentioned the situation with the Estates General (which is different from the religious part, but their are connections), to clarify that politcal dicrimination existed and that it was (partly, local protestants got local offices in a region with a vast catholic majority) not totally religious.

Not to mention the fact that as consequence of the 80 years war Brabant was split, which by the vast majority of Brabantians is as judged very negatively...

(**= with the Batavian Republic the issues with the representation and religious rights were settled, although it was only the start of the emancipation of catholics and others, who didn't share the old state religion)
 
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