Surviving Dominant Zoroastrianism without Surviving Persia

[Zioneer]

Is there any way to keep Zoroastrianism as a dominant and influential religion through the world (ancient or otherwise), without a millennia-spanning Persian Empire? As in, have it not remain only a Persian state religion and instead become a Christianity-esque nationless religion? Could there even be a heretical version of Zoroastrianism that has an aggressively missionary nature?

 

[Herzen's love-child]

Is there any way to keep Zoroastrianism as a dominant and influential religion through the world (ancient or otherwise), without a millennia-spanning Persian Empire? As in, have it not remain only a Persian state religion and instead become a Christianity-esque nationless religion? Could there even be a heretical version of Zoroastrianism that has an aggressively missionary nature?

It did have an aggressively missionary nature when it was the state religion under some of the Sassanids. They also actively persecuted adherents of other religions, particularly in the Persian core of the empire. But it never really got traction outside of the heartland.

 

[azander12]

For this to happen, it would need to become less associated with the Sassanid state. Perhaps the Sassanids survive substantially longer (with the Muslim Arabs being beaten back by the Byzantines early in their attempted expansion and with Abu Bakr being killed perhaps?). Then, a major civil war in the Sassanid Empire leads to the exile of many elites who flee to Central Asia and the Caucasus, where they integrate into the local khanates as refugees. Zoroastrianism eventually establishes itself as the main religious rival to Christianity among the peoples of Central Asia and the Greater Caucasus, as they battle Christianized Slavs. This leads to Zoroastrianism being less associated with just Persia, although the cultural center of the religion remains in the shattered, Arab and Turkic-dominated remnants of Persia. The Zoroastrian khanates eventually unify as they battle pressures to convert. However, Europe, without the pressure of Muslim encroachment, has significantly more variety of Christian sects, with some remaining pagans in the North.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

It would also have to contend with Buddhism, which was very much still very influential in Central Asia. In azander12's scenario, Buddhism which OTL was under attack by Islam in Central Asia, would be an even more formidable competitor.

 

[azander12]

It would also have to contend with Buddhism, which was very much still very influential in Central Asia. In azander12's scenario, Buddhism which OTL was under attack by Islam in Central Asia, would be an even more formidable competitor.

Maybe some level of syncretism? The introduction of monasticism and missionary practice into Zoroastrianism would be very useful for its long-term strength.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

Maybe some level of syncretism? The introduction of monasticism and missionary practice into Zoroastrianism would be very useful for its long-term strength.

Perhaps. That's a good idea.
As it was, it has been argued that some Zoroastrianism symbology influenced some schools of Buddhism, as different as the premises for each belief system are.

 

[Dfront21]

Is there any way to keep Zoroastrianism as a dominant and influential religion through the world (ancient or otherwise), without a millennia-spanning Persian Empire? As in, have it not remain only a Persian state religion and instead become a Christianity-esque nationless religion? Could there even be a heretical version of Zoroastrianism that has an aggressively missionary nature?

Zoroastrianism was not only dominant in Sassanid Persia, it was also dominant among the Sogdians of Central Asia. Mary Boyce (A History of Zoroastrianism) also makes reference to Zoroastrian communities in Syria, the Caucasus (especially Azerbaijan, and to a lesser extent in Armenia) and Anatolia. There were known missionary efforts in Yemen and Ethiopia, and one Pecheneg Turkish tribe did convert to Zoroastrianism.

Zoroastrianism (mainly among Parsis) current prohibition on conversion is a modern phenomenon. Many scholars attribute this prohibition to the religious restrictions placed on them in Greater Iran and India. Nonetheless, there is still strong interest on Zoroastrianism in Azerbaijan, Iran, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.

 

[azander12]

Zoroastrianism was not only dominant in Sassanid Persia, it was also dominant among the Sogdians of Central Asia. Mary Boyce (A History of Zoroastrianism) also makes reference to Zoroastrian communities in Syria, the Caucasus (especially Azerbaijan, and to a lesser extent in Armenia) and Anatolia. There were known missionary efforts in Yemen and Ethiopia, and one Pecheneg Turkish tribe did convert to Zoroastrianism.

Zoroastrianism (mainly among Parsis) current prohibition on conversion is a modern phenomenon. Many scholars attribute this prohibition to the religious restrictions placed on them in Greater Iran and India. Nonetheless, there is still strong interest on Zoroastrianism in Azerbaijan, Iran, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.

Hmm, you'll have to avoid the mass conversion of Zoroastrians to Islam and the expulsion of many survivors to India following the Arab conquest. I think you'll need to strangle Islam in its cradle for this. Then, Iran can be overrun by pagan, Buddhist or even Zoroastrian Turks and still have an aggressively proselytizing Zoroastrianism competing with Nestorian, Orthodox and Catholicism on the plains of Russia and Central Asia....

 

[Herzen's love-child]

Zoroastrianism was not only dominant in Sassanid Persia, it was also dominant among the Sogdians of Central Asia. Mary Boyce (A History of Zoroastrianism) also makes reference to Zoroastrian communities in Syria, the Caucasus (especially Azerbaijan, and to a lesser extent in Armenia) and Anatolia. There were known missionary efforts in Yemen and Ethiopia, and one Pecheneg Turkish tribe did convert to Zoroastrianism.

Sogdiana was the meeting ground of religions on the Silk Road.

 

[Malta]

Well, there were several syncretic cults. Oriental Gods were all the rage in the Late Roman Empire.

 

[Dfront21]

Sogdiana was the meeting ground of religions on the Silk Road.

Yes, it was, but Zoroastrianism was the dominant religion among the Sogdians. However, the Zoroastrianism of the Sogdians was of a different sect than of the Sassanids.

 

[Dfront21]

Hmm, you'll have to avoid the mass conversion of Zoroastrians to Islam and the expulsion of many survivors to India following the Arab conquest. I think you'll need to strangle Islam in its cradle for this. Then, Iran can be overrun by pagan, Buddhist or even Zoroastrian Turks and still have an aggressively proselytizing Zoroastrianism competing with Nestorian, Orthodox and Catholicism on the plains of Russia and Central Asia....

There was no mass conversion to Islam. It took several centuries for Islam to be the majority religion in the Iranian plateau. The elites were the first to convert to Islam, and did so rather quickly, but it took several centuries for the masses to convert. The final death blow to the Zoroastrian community in Iran was the arrival of the Mongols. If you butterfly away the Mongols you would still have a strong Zoroastrian community in Greater Iran, that could establish some sort of state.

 

[azander12]

There was no mass conversion to Islam. It took several centuries for Islam to be the majority religion in the Iranian plateau. The elites were the first to convert to Islam, and did so rather quickly, but it took several centuries for the masses to convert. The final death blow to the Zoroastrian community in Iran was the arrival of the Mongols. If you butterfly away the Mongols you would still have a strong Zoroastrian community in Greater Iran, that could establish some sort of state.

Interesting, I didn't know that. I thought it occurred much faster than that. I still think once Islam is in there, its not going to happen. Islam will out-compete Zoroastrianism as a faith in most places.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

My understanding was that the Islamization of the Iranian plateau was pretty much complete by the 11th cent. before the Mongols. But yeah, pretty much a gradual process outside of the cities.

 

[Dfront21]

My understanding was that the Islamization of the Iranian plateau was pretty much complete by the 11th cent. before the Mongols. But yeah, pretty much a gradual process outside of the cities.

That's essentially correct. However, there was still a strong Zoroastrian minority. The Mongols dealt the demographic death blow to the Zoroastrian community, and are now a pitiful .1% of the Iranian population.

As far as getting a Zoroastrian state post Islam, the best POD would be a failed Abbassid revolution. The Ummayads were not so interested in converts, as they collected a lot of Jizyah from the Kufar populations. Up to the early decades of the Abbassids you still had strong Zoroastrian revolts and movements in Azerbaijan, Zagros, the Caspian steppe and Khorasan. To fulfill the OP, probably prevent Abu Muslim Khorasani's assassination.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

Granted Khorasani wielded a relatively light hand towards the Zoroastrians and other non-Muslims, but how does butterflying his assassination away get one more than perhaps an ephemeral Zoroastrian state? And where?

The Umayyads were not much better than the Abbasids in their persecution of the Zoroastrians, dhimmi status or not.

Interestingly, in the 9th & 10th Centuries, the native Saminid dynasty was founded by the converted Zoroastrian religious hierarchy.

 

[kasumigenx]

Why not have the Zoroastrians ally with the Mongols against the Muslims.

 

[Dfront21]

Granted Khorasani wielded a relatively light hand towards the Zoroastrians and other non-Muslims, but how does butterflying his assassination away get one more than perhaps an ephemeral Zoroastrian state? And where?

The Umayyads were not much better than the Abbasids in their persecution of the Zoroastrians, dhimmi status or not.

Interestingly, in the 9th & 10th Centuries, the native Saminid dynasty was founded by the converted Zoroastrian religious hierarchy.

Khorasani could prevent any further conversions. His base of power was in Central Asia. Perhaps a future Zoroastrian state could form in CA, thus fulfilling the OP.

But, yeah, several native dynasties descended from the early Persian converts.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

Khorasani could prevent any further conversions. His base of power was in Central Asia. Perhaps a future Zoroastrian state could form in CA, thus fulfilling the OP.

Ahhh, but several of my favorite cities in Khorasan would have very different skylines. Fire temples rather than some of the coolest minarets I've seen.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

I'm surprised that nobody yet has already mentioned the presence of Zoroastrians in China. On the other hand, I highly doubt that Zoroastrianism can come to dominate China's religious life, so I hope I don't get anybody's hopes up.