surviving Domain of Soissons

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How would Syagrius' Domain of Soissons have evolved (politically, economically, culturally etc.) had it managed to get through the migration period ?

Here's a (not all that likely) starting point:

480. Julius Nepos discovers the plot by Ovida and the former western emperor turned bishop Glycerius (who was working for Odoacer) to murder him and flees Dalmatia for Constantinople.

481. Odoacer invades Dalmatia, defeats Ovida and appoints Glycerius as byshop of Milan.

482. Due to [insert reason here] Nepos fall out of favor in Constantinople and even hears of a plot (true or not) by Leo I to murder him. He takes his daughter, servants and money, borrows like crazy from everyone and then sets sail for the only place on earth he still thinks is loyal to him, northern Gaul.

483. Nepos, after a perilous journey, reaches Soissons in northern Gaul, then ruled by "dux" Syagrius (who was still issuing coins in Nepos' name). He dies shortly afterwards of unknown cause (old age, assassination, disease, you name it), but not before marrying his daughter off to Syagrius and naming him his successor and Emperor of Rome.

486. Using Nepos' money, Syagrius defeats the Franks, killing Clovis.

489. The Franks go south and invade the Alemanni starting a chain reaction. The Alemanni go south, pushing the Burgundians south-west, who in turn push the Visigoths out of southern Gaul.

493. The overstreched Franks loose to the Saxons and Frisians and then fragment into a couple of smaller kingdoms to the south. The Saxons migrate less to Britain given their new "Lebensraum" between the Rhine and the Somme.

Assuming the situation sort of stabilizes, how will this Roman remnant fare ? They have a largely intact infrastructure and are surrounded by small-ish kingdoms who are unlikely to crush them given skill and luck on the Roman side.

amateurishly made map:
surviving Soissons.png

surviving Soissons.png
 
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I've tried this scenario before, but I didn't think it was workable. However, you, I think, may be able to pull it off.
 
I've tried this scenario before, but I didn't think it was workable.

What were, in your view, the main arguments against it ?


However, you, I think, may be able to pull it off.
Thanks, but for now, in the little spare time I have left, I think I'm going to concentrate on my rhomanian timeline. I just found this topic interesting and wondered what people would think of a Gallo-Roman State, the last vestige of classical civilization among a sea of "barbarians". Sadly, not many people seem interested...
 
What were, in your view, the main arguments against it ?


Thanks, but for now, in the little spare time I have left, I think I'm going to concentrate on my rhomanian timeline. I just found this topic interesting and wondered what people would think of a Gallo-Roman State, the last vestige of classical civilization among a sea of "barbarians". Sadly, not many people seem interested...

But classical cultural traditions survived in the cities of Italy, Southern Gaul, Spain, etc. Now you've had the Burgundians do to Southern Gaul in this time line what the Franks did in our time line.
 
The possibility of the Domain of Soissons surviving has always intrigued me. You have very good POD right there; opens up a lot of possibilities. Below are some points I think need to be covered.

-What is going on Britain? Does the slackening of Saxon migration and the presence of a strong, friendly power in Gaul, able to patrol the channel and protect the seas, mean Roman identity survives in Britain? Furthermore, could Syagrius realistically support the Roman hold outs against the invaders, or is the most he can do block other Saxons from crossing the channel?

-Who succeeds Syagrius? A little digging turned up this page, which contains some relevant genealogy notes. Specifically, Syagrius had three sons; Agillius, Accolone, and Aganippus (listed by age - all would have been born before the POD). Obviously, they had a mother, who likely was still alive. We could kill her off (disease was, after all, common in this time) or we could play the pagan card (assuming polygamy is ok in Roman society, I cannot remember off the top of my head). I do remember reading in The Decline and Fall of Rome that Aegidius was a pagan; I would guess Syagrius followed in his father's footsteps.

-I also learned from The Decline and Fall of Rome that Aegidius was an ally of Roman Emperor Majorian, and also magister militae Nepotianus. Nepotanius was the brother-in law of Marcellinus, the powerful Dalmatian governor who was de facto independent from the time of Majorian's death until his own death in 468. I bring this up because Nepotanius's son was Julius Nepos. Thus, it is more than natural for Nepos to flee to the Domain of Soissons as a last resort. It also gives Syagrius a tentative cassus belli against Odoacer's empire, which now controls Illyria.

-How does Syagrius handle the Saxons on his eastern border? He needs to keep them under control, to prevent raids and piracy. Does he invade and conquer? Does he try to vassalize them?

If you are thinking about a timeline, I would love to co-write, by the way :)
 
What were, in your view, the main arguments against it ?


Thanks, but for now, in the little spare time I have left, I think I'm going to concentrate on my rhomanian timeline. I just found this topic interesting and wondered what people would think of a Gallo-Roman State, the last vestige of classical civilization among a sea of "barbarians". Sadly, not many people seem interested...

Mostly because I didn't think of killing Clovis-I had him defeated, but figured that he'd eventually try to take it, it's too rich of a target not to. However, you manage to kill him and deflect everyone else. While I do like your Rhomanian timeline, this one is quite original, and has great potential.
 
Given his impressive record in this timeline, I would expect the Britons would ask Syagrius to be their ruler too. Typically, breakaway empires in the west had included territories on both sides of the Channel (Carausius; Magnentius; Magnus Maximus; Constantine III; maybe Riothamus).

Whether he accepts or not, Syagrius's Gaulish realm and early post-Roman Britain are natural allies.
 
Given his impressive record in this timeline, I would expect the Britons would ask Syagrius to be their ruler too. Typically, breakaway empires in the west had included territories on both sides of the Channel (Carausius; Magnentius; Magnus Maximus; Constantine III; maybe Riothamus).

Whether he accepts or not, Syagrius's Gaulish realm and early post-Roman Britain are natural allies.
Allies, yes. I question Syagrius's power projection capability. Even after defeating the Franks, Germanic tribes are still moving all across his borders. Not to mention, as the Roman Emperor, he has a mandate to try and retake Rome. Sure, the city had gone to the dogs and Ravenna was the last capital (and current capital of Odoacer's Kingdom), but it's the symbolism that counts.

I wonder how the Latin language evolves in this timeline? It presumably will not die, meaning it will continue to adapt. Latin could be much more similar to the Germanic family of languages.
 
But If Syagrius goes on a rampage all the way down to Rome and conquers it then it'll be more like a surviving roman empire than a surviving domain of Soissons right?


If Syagrius had managed to stabilize his domain, defeat the franks and possibly expand somewhat, then how do you think the people of Gaul would react?

did the people there wish for for a roman government? would it be relatively easy to inspire rebellion and overthrow the Germanic overlords?
If so then why didn't it happen OTL?
 
wow, I'm glad the idea did spark some discussion after all.

Yelnoc, it would be an honor to do a collaborative timeline with you, although, I warn you, I've never done it before.

Regarding retaking Rome, I doubt Syagrius' realm has enough force in it (although I may be easily swayed by god arguments). However, some power projection along Britains southern shores is not too outlandish IMHO.

Regaring Latin, it will most surely adapt and I think the common tongue spoken in a few generations will probably be a mix of vulgar latin, celtic and germanic. The language of the elites however I expect to be a very recognisable form of classical latin. Since it didn't dissapear OTL, with the ruling elite speaking something else, I dobut it will in this one, where the elite will probably cling to it with pride and stubborness.

More later (probably monday when I'm back home)
 
How would the Eastern empire interact with a Roman empire in Gaul, who possibly has Mediterranean access after a partial reconquest of former Roman territory on the Southern fringes of Gaul?

Without a strong Francia, then perhaps a full reconquest/reunification of the Roman empire by Byzantium becomes a little less ASB, especially if that nasty plague in the 6th century is butterflied.
 
I stumbled across the map on a Google Images search for a timeline I'm working on, and thought I would bump it. Interesting ideas.
 

CalBear

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Back to the grave ZOMBIE!. With Blood, Iron and Power I fix you to the Earth never to rise again!

If you are not the OP you don't go into a long dead thread to direct other to your thread
 
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