Surviving children of Louis XIV and Maria Theresa

Otl, only Louis, Le Grand Dauphin born 1661 survived to adulthood. But there were five other children. Now, say two of those other five survived, Philippe, Duke of Anjou born 1668 and Marie Therese of France born 1667, how would this influence things for France? Would Louis ignore the conditions of his marriage contract to Maria Theresa and angle for Philippe to get the throne after Carlos II, if so, would Carlos be more accepting? Would the other powers be more accepting? Who might Philippe marry? And to add onto interesting things, if Charles II of England had a son as a consequence of this butterfly would he and Louis look to mary their children together?
 
Assuming that Maria Theresa dies as OTL, her second son Philippe becomes TTL's Felipe V of Spain after the death of his uncle Carlos II. This time there's no shenanigans since a younger son of Louis XIV is succeeding, and not a younger son of the le Grand Dauphin.
 
Assuming that Maria Theresa dies as OTL, her second son Philippe becomes TTL's Felipe V of Spain after the death of his uncle Carlos II. This time there's no shenanigans since a younger son of Louis XIV is succeeding, and not a younger son of the le Grand Dauphin.
Interesting you don't think Leopold would use the marriage contract stipulations to suggest his kid should succeed?
 
Let's say Louis XIV's second son does live and succeeds to the throne of Spain as TTL's Felipe V. And lets say all the Prince's, Le grande Dauphin, his eldest son sitll die in the epidemic that hit the Versailles Palace between 1711-1712. Then a young Louis XV would have his uncle, (The real time line Felipe V) as regent instead of his second cousin the Duke of Orleans, (nephew of Louis XIV, son of Louis XIV's brother.) Might that have made an impact on the orphaned boy King with a closer relative to watch over him and be his "caretaker" parent before he comes of age? How might that have changed French History after the regency of Louis XV?
 
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Interesting you don't think Leopold would use the marriage contract stipulations to suggest his kid should succeed?

The clause in the Maria Theresa's marriage contract that debarred her from the Spanish throne was conditional upon her dowry being paid. With the dowry not being paid, Maria Theresa as Carlos II's oldest sister is next in line for the Spanish throne. Once Carlos II dies childless as OTL, Prince Philippe is the logical successor since the Grand Dauphine was in line to inherit the French throne. Now if the other major Powers are worried about Philippe possibly inheriting the French throne due a more severe smallpox outbreak that struck the French royal court in OTL, then you can have Marie Therese be Carlos II's successor since she wouldn't be in line for the French throne under Salic Law.
 
Assuming that Maria Theresa dies as OTL, her second son Philippe becomes TTL's Felipe V of Spain after the death of his uncle Carlos II. This time there's no shenanigans since a younger son of Louis XIV is succeeding, and not a younger son of the le Grand Dauphin.

I can't understand your point. What difference does it make that it be a younger son of Louis XIV instead of a son of the grand Dauphin becoming king of Spain.

There is still the risk that this younger son of Louis XIV has no surviving child.
 
I can't understand your point. What difference does it make that it be a younger son of Louis XIV instead of a son of the grand Dauphin becoming king of Spain.

There is still the risk that this younger son of Louis XIV has no surviving child.

Extended generations. TTL Felipe V would be behind his brother and nephews, 5th if the same number of sons are born to le Grand Dauphin. OTL Felipe was 3rd, behind his father and older brother. Plus the new Spanish King is 32 and likely has a son or two of his own by that point, so fear of a Franco-Spanish union.
 
Extended generations. TTL Felipe V would be behind his brother and nephews, 5th if the same number of sons are born to le Grand Dauphin. OTL Felipe was 3rd, behind his father and older brother. Plus the new Spanish King is 32 and likely has a son or two of his own by that point, so fear of a Franco-Spanish union.

Sure but this is hindsight and the heads of other european States could not guess in 1700 that OTL Philip of Anjou, the second son of the Grand Dauphin, would have so many surviving children as he had OTL.
 
Alright very interesting. So, I suppose then that should any surviving sons that Leopold and Margaret Theresa of Austria would have, would simply be in line for the Habsburg inheritance then? I also take it that there'd be no division of claims for Naples and Sicily?
 
As a marriage candidate for Philip, would his father consider a simple marriage to his cousin Anne Marie of Orleans, or perhaps Violante Beatrice of Bavaria, sister to his brother's otl wife.
 
Sure but this is hindsight and the heads of other european States could not guess in 1700 that OTL Philip of Anjou, the second son of the Grand Dauphin, would have so many surviving children as he had OTL.

I really don't understand what your objecting too exactly. TTL Anjou would be, at the least, 6th in line for the French throne and likely to be pushed even farther back after his nephews marry and begin to have children. Anjou is also likely to have himself married and had a few children, further lessening the already remove chance of a Franco-Spanish union. So what's the issue?

Alright very interesting. So, I suppose then that should any surviving sons that Leopold and Margaret Theresa of Austria would have, would simply be in line for the Habsburg inheritance then? I also take it that there'd be no division of claims for Naples and Sicily?

No division. OTL Carlos II left the Spanish monarchy to Philippe d'Anjou in its entirety, with the throne going next to Charles de Berry and finally to Archduke Karl if the above two declined the throne. The will clearly stated that the Monarchy was not to be divided in any way. Even if a partition treaty is agreed to beforehand its going to become worthless once Carlos II's will emerges. No one's going to pass up the chance of the full Spanish Empire.

As for Leopold and Margaret Theresa's issue, that really depends. If they have multiple sons then the younger would probably inherit the Spanish Monarchy. In the event of one son then things become more complicated, though I'd bet that he'd get Spain and a younger son by a second/third marriage gets the Empire (like I did in A et D). But that's a completely different discussion. If we're going with the only change being a few more children from Louis XIV and Maria Theresa then a Bourbon Spain is assured. If we're having multiple changes its up in the air. Best thing would be a daughter from Margaret marrying Anjou, uniting competing claims.
 
I really don't understand what your objecting too exactly. TTL Anjou would be, at the least, 6th in line for the French throne and likely to be pushed even farther back after his nephews marry and begin to have children. Anjou is also likely to have himself married and had a few children, further lessening the already remove chance of a Franco-Spanish union. So what's the issue?



No division. OTL Carlos II left the Spanish monarchy to Philippe d'Anjou in its entirety, with the throne going next to Charles de Berry and finally to Archduke Karl if the above two declined the throne. The will clearly stated that the Monarchy was not to be divided in any way. Even if a partition treaty is agreed to beforehand its going to become worthless once Carlos II's will emerges. No one's going to pass up the chance of the full Spanish Empire.

As for Leopold and Margaret Theresa's issue, that really depends. If they have multiple sons then the younger would probably inherit the Spanish Monarchy. In the event of one son then things become more complicated, though I'd bet that he'd get Spain and a younger son by a second/third marriage gets the Empire (like I did in A et D). But that's a completely different discussion. If we're going with the only change being a few more children from Louis XIV and Maria Theresa then a Bourbon Spain is assured. If we're having multiple changes its up in the air. Best thing would be a daughter from Margaret marrying Anjou, uniting competing claims.

Alright that is a fair point and one that likely ensures more stability. I suppose, the great powers would do everything in their power to avoid war over Spain? So perhaps Maria Antonia could marry Philippe Duke of Anjou, thus uniting the two claims, and bringing Spain to the Bourbons in peace?
 
Alright that is a fair point and one that likely ensures more stability. I suppose, the great powers would do everything in their power to avoid war over Spain? So perhaps Maria Antonia could marry Philippe Duke of Anjou, thus uniting the two claims, and bringing Spain to the Bourbons in peace?

What I tried to explain is that this reasoning is pure hindsight.

Who could guess in 1700 that OTL Philip of Anjou would have so many surviving male children as he did OTL.

OTL Philip of Anjou could have died childless like his younger brother Charles of Berry.

He could have died leaving just one son with a poor health like his elder brother Louis of Burgundy and his son OTL Louis XV.

So for the british government, the dutch government, the austrian Habsburg government that had to make decisions in 1700 with the knowledge of the situation that they had at this moment. And It would have been a very careless bet for them to bet that Philip of Anjou would have as many sons and that his sons would have so many grandsons as happened OTL.
 
What I tried to explain is that this reasoning is pure hindsight.

Who could guess in 1700 that OTL Philip of Anjou would have so many surviving male children as he did OTL.

OTL Philip of Anjou could have died childless like his younger brother Charles of Berry.

He could have died leaving just one son with a poor health like his elder brother Louis of Burgundy and his son OTL Louis XV.

So for the british government, the dutch government, the austrian Habsburg government that had to make decisions in 1700 with the knowledge of the situation that they had at this moment. And It would have been a very careless bet for them to bet that Philip of Anjou would have as many sons and that his sons would have so many grandsons as happened OTL.

But with this Philip of Anjou being at best fifth in the line of succession in 1700, one would excuse them for thinking that the chances of a union between Spain and France are unlikely.
 
But with this Philip of Anjou being at best fifth in the line of succession in 1700, one would excuse them for thinking that the chances of a union between Spain and France are unlikely.

In 1700, OTL Philip of Anjou was third in the succession line of the kingdom of France.

His elder brother Louis of Burgundy, number 2 in the succession line, then had no son (he had a son Louis 1704-1705, a son Louis 1707-1712, and son OTL Louis XV 1710-1774).

OTL Philip of Anjou, Philip V of Spain was childless until 1707. And his first children all died early. He had a son Louis 1707-1724 (childless), a son Philip 1709-1709, a son Philip 1712-1719, a son Ferdinand VI (1713-1759, childless), a son Charles III (1716-1788 who is the ancestor of the present elder male Bourbons because he had several surviving sons who themselves had grandsons).

OTL Charles of Berry died sonless (his only son born in 1713 having lived but à few days).

So basically, there were for almost 3 decades strong reasons to fear that the Salic law that was the dynastic rule of the house of Bourbon would cause a reuninting of the kingdoms of France, Spains, Sicily, ... etc, on the same single Bourbon head.
 
In 1700, OTL Philip of Anjou was third in the succession line of the kingdom of France.

His elder brother Louis of Burgundy, number 2 in the succession line, then had no son (he had a son Louis 1704-1705, a son Louis 1707-1712, and son OTL Louis XV 1710-1774).

OTL Philip of Anjou, Philip V of Spain was childless until 1707. And his first children all died early. He had a son Louis 1707-1724 (childless), a son Philip 1709-1709, a son Philip 1712-1719, a son Ferdinand VI (1713-1759, childless), a son Charles III (1716-1788 who is the ancestor of the present elder male Bourbons because he had several surviving sons who themselves had grandsons).

OTL Charles of Berry died sonless (his only son born in 1713 having lived but à few days).

So basically, there were for almost 3 decades strong reasons to fear that the Salic law that was the dynastic rule of the house of Bourbon would cause a reuninting of the kingdoms of France, Spains, Sicily, ... etc, on the same single Bourbon head.
Yet it was more of worry when Charles of Austria became holy Roman emperor
 
So, here's what I've decided upon, johann Leopold remains stillborn. Louis xiv son Philippe duke of Anjou is declared heir to Charles II of Spain and marries Maria Antonia daughter of emperor Leopold to solidify the claims. Leopold then marries Claudia felicitas of Austria Tyrol and has two surviving sons.
 
I really don't understand what your objecting too exactly. TTL Anjou would be, at the least, 6th in line for the French throne and likely to be pushed even farther back after his nephews marry and begin to have children. Anjou is also likely to have himself married and had a few children, further lessening the already remove chance of a Franco-Spanish union. So what's the issue?



No division. OTL Carlos II left the Spanish monarchy to Philippe d'Anjou in its entirety, with the throne going next to Charles de Berry and finally to Archduke Karl if the above two declined the throne. The will clearly stated that the Monarchy was not to be divided in any way. Even if a partition treaty is agreed to beforehand its going to become worthless once Carlos II's will emerges. No one's going to pass up the chance of the full Spanish Empire.

As for Leopold and Margaret Theresa's issue, that really depends. If they have multiple sons then the younger would probably inherit the Spanish Monarchy. In the event of one son then things become more complicated, though I'd bet that he'd get Spain and a younger son by a second/third marriage gets the Empire (like I did in A et D). But that's a completely different discussion. If we're going with the only change being a few more children from Louis XIV and Maria Theresa then a Bourbon Spain is assured. If we're having multiple changes its up in the air. Best thing would be a daughter from Margaret marrying Anjou, uniting competing claims.
Speaking of the will,was it simply something that the people in charge of Charles drafted or is it really something he himself authorized?
 
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