Surviving Austro-hungarian monarchy?

My problem, historiographically speaking, is actually the lack of good revisionist history here. The narrative of the "twilight" of the Habsburg Monarchy (to use Alan Palmer's title) is badly in need of being readdressed in the popular mind, and speaks to a general need to readdress our understanding of the First World War. Again, because of positivist, present-centered history, I feel that we collectively continue to allow the Second World War to color our understanding of the First, and that's problematic. To understand the Second World War you must understand the First, but the reverse it not true and thus should have no bearing on our discussions, yet it often seems to.

25 years ago, aged 18, I walked out of my head of History's lecture at uni because he started it with "Austria-Hungary was always going to collapse" and when I tried to challenge him on this he told me to be quiet because that wasn't how lectures worked at university. I walked out and never went to another lecture (I went to classes and tutorials and did most the research myself). He later tried to throw me out and gave me the C- for the departmental rating which meant I did not quite get that First, but hey, he was being an ass, and I wasn't going to sit there and listen to it without recourse.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
25 years ago, aged 18, I walked out of my head of History's lecture at uni because he started it with "Austria-Hungary was always going to collapse" and when I tried to challenge him on this he told me to be quiet because that wasn't how lectures worked at university. I walked out and never went to another lecture (I went to classes and tutorials and did most the research myself). He later tried to throw me out and gave me the C- for the departmental rating which meant I did not quite get that First, but hey, he was being an ass, and I wasn't going to sit there and listen to it without recourse.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Ugh, I can only imagine. The worst I ever got was for calling Ljubljana, "Laibach" by accident. Though I still contend that, because I was talking about the city in the context of the Habsburg Monarchy, I didn't commit a faux pas. Also I still can't pronounce Ljubljana...
 
Just nobody mention Lviv and we should all be fine. ;)
Funny way to pronounce Lemberg...

I agree with the posters on here who state that the Austro-Hungarian monarchy wasn't a done thing, even in the 20th century. I've read two recently published books over the past year that at least in part deal with the late Austrian Empire, and while one (A Mad Catastrophe) was more dismissive of its chances than the other (The Sleepwalkers), though both admit that there was a lot of possible reform that could have taken place.

The main problem at the core of it all is the Dual Monarchy itself. While it may have avoided a replay of 1848 (without Russian help) in the aftermath of the Austro-Prussian war, it proved to obstruct most Austrian efforts of reform. Hungary persecuted its minorities more harshly than Austria proper did, it consistently made sure that Austria-Hungary's army was the worst provided for of all the Great Powers. With an Emperor more willing to take on the status quo, it is indeed possible for Austria to reign in Hungary, and possibly go for a more equitable distribution of power (a Slavic crown based in Bohemia or Croatia) or even a more federal solution. The latter one in particular would do much to ensure the benefits of a United Austrian Empire whilst taking the wind out of the sails of the minority (before World War One) of people who wanted to break away from the Empire.

I say this as someone who isn't too well educated on the Empire though. And as someone who destroyed the Empire in his own Timeline. Sorry guys. :eek:
 
I would love to see a surviving Austro - Hungarian TL, I would be particularly interested in seeing how it adapts to the modern era. I have also read that AH could have sorted out their sphere of influence issues with Russia over the Balkans.

If anyone does do this as a TL, points for including Otto Proshka in the TL.
 
1848 is another good PoD to strengthen the Austrian Empire, although on this board it is mostly used to kill it.

It's potentially useful because it provides probably the best opportunity for the Habsburgs to permanently break Hungarian Power. In particular, Croatia really deserved some reward for their loyalty and historically got pretty much nothing. They should have been completely removed from the Hungarian Crown, permanently, being granted a status similar to Bohemia.

There were also significant Pro-Habsburg Uprisings in other non-Hungarian parts of Hungary. They sometimes turned against the Habsburgs because of the lack of a coordinated statement of support. If they took the opportunity to also split of The Banat into a Serbian State, since the Serbs were not yet purely Anti-Habsburg, and Transylvania into a Romanian State, that would vastly reduce the size of the Kingdom of Hungary and surround them with states that will likely be very loyal to the Habsburgs. Slovakia is another potential.

It also starts off the process of re-organizing the Empire into a federation of smaller cultural states united under the Habsburg Banner.
 
I wonder if it is farfetched, but could a different 1848 lead to a 'Großösterreichische Lösung'? A reestablishment of the old Holy Roman Empire, but this time including Hungary and the rest of the Habsburg possessions under Ferdinand, precisely because he is thought weak and just a figurehead? Mirroring the 'Kaiserlose, schreckliche Zeit' and the first rise of the House of Habsburg?
 

plenka

Banned
You all have some great ideas, and the discussion is interesting. I was thinking of a collaborative TL or at least a discussion in which we can make some sort of a outline for a TL. For example, someone before has mentioned 1848 as the year of possible POD.
 
Back when I was still actively writing, my intent was to do a massive scale 1848 PoD TL which I intended to title To Waltz Once More. It's an idea that's been bounced around a lot, especially between myself and Eurofed. Basically the thought was that Archduchess Sophie is able to guess how the chips will fall and very early on persuades the Regency Council to piggyback on the early Paulskirche. The Austrian Empire is divided amongst her sons, with Franzl becoming Franz III, Holy Roman Emperor, Maximilian, romantic that he was, passing over Hungary in favor of restoring the Iron Crown and eventually unifying Italy, Karl Ludwig being crowned Apostolic King of Hungary and King of Croatia (under a Regency of the Hungarian Magnates in Pressburg), and little Ludwig Victor being set up as King in Galicia (titularly claiming Poland, Regency of his parents and a Polish cabal, led by the Archbishop of Krakow). For reference, the idea was that Ferdinand would retain the title King of Bohemia as a figure head position and out of deference.

It was intended to have themes of Roman legacy in political identity, with Maximilian and Italy claiming a Roman mantle in response to Germany's similar move and a much earlier Pan-European/Mittleeuropa transnational identity coming to challenge nationalist identity through that very identity.

There was gonna be stuff happening elsewhere too, France with Utopian Socialism, America where Lincoln survives, a Canadian cadet monarch, etc.

It's something I really would like to do at some point, when I have the time and energy.
 
Back when I was still actively writing, my intent was to do a massive scale 1848 PoD TL which I intended to title To Waltz Once More. It's an idea that's been bounced around a lot, especially between myself and Eurofed. Basically the thought was that Archduchess Sophie is able to guess how the chips will fall and very early on persuades the Regency Council to piggyback on the early Paulskirche. The Austrian Empire is divided amongst her sons, with Franzl becoming Franz III, Holy Roman Emperor, Maximilian, romantic that he was, passing over Hungary in favor of restoring the Iron Crown and eventually unifying Italy, Karl Ludwig being crowned Apostolic King of Hungary and King of Croatia (under a Regency of the Hungarian Magnates in Pressburg), and little Ludwig Victor being set up as King in Galicia (titularly claiming Poland, Regency of his parents and a Polish cabal, led by the Archbishop of Krakow). For reference, the idea was that Ferdinand would retain the title King of Bohemia as a figure head position and out of deference.

I'm not sure this works. The minute you break up the Empire, nationalism will come into it and all hell will break loose. I can see a separate Polish state ruled by a Habsburg (in such a circumstance, the Poles might even come to regard the Habsurgs as the protector of their independence especially compared to Russia and Prussia) but Italy? There were two cadet branches of the dynasty there (Modena and Tuscany) and they both lost their thrones. The best possible thing would be it to one of the Italian Habsburgs to unite Italy instead of the House of Savoy (perhaps Austria gives the Tuscany branch Milan/Venice and then the Modena-branch who were extinguished in the male line in 1875 gives up its claims in return for something). Also as I mentioned expand East instead of South and have a Habsurg reunite Romania (the Russians will be a problem though on this point). Now you have the House of Habsburgs almost completely surrounding the core of A-H as buffer states.

If you want to go further, butterfly Napoleon II's death in 1832 and have him long enough to witness the toppling of Louis Phillipe in 1848 and swoop in as his cousin Nap III did. Even though Fritz (as he was called in Austria) was entirely raised in Austria and was a Habsburg (and looked like his mother) he was still Bonaparte's son. A Napoleon II restoration in France puts a Habsburg there too.
 
Funny way to pronounce Lemberg...
Aaiieee! He said it! He said it!

As The Economist described it in an article 'a guide to Eastern Europe's most tedious arguments'

Ukraine/Poland: Anyone who spells the capital of Galicia as Lwów is a Polish nationalist who bayonets Ukrainian babies for fun. Anyone who says it is spelled Lviv is a Ukrainian fascist who bayonets Polish babies for fun. Anyone who spells it Lvov is a Soviet mass murderer. And anyone who calls it Lemberg is a Nazi. See you in Leopolis for further discussion.
 

plenka

Banned
For the record, it's something like "Lee-oob-lee-ah-na," but the "lju" is quicker than "lee-oo;" think the sound of "lube" if pronounced like "hue." Likewise "lja" is said very quickly.

I'm not sure if that made any sense.

Here is the phonetic transcription, to clear up any misunderstandings
| ˌljuːblɪˈɑːnə |. I just love hearing and reading attempts of foreigners to speak any of the slavic languages, it is hilarious. :D
 
As for Italy, why not a semi-unification as a federal state, like the Second Reich? With the Emperor, as the King of Lombardy and Venetia, as its head of state and the pope as permanent chairman of the upper house?
 

plenka

Banned
I have read a TL in which Franz Joseph I is killed in the assasination, would this be a good POD? I have read that FJ was very conservative, would another ruler be better, more willing to implement reforms? Peolple have already said that AH was not just waiting to collapse, only the added strain of war and Hungarian oppression thet finally broke the Monarchy. For example, Croatia was supportive of Austria as a counter to Hungarian hegemony. If Croatia was reunited after the revolution of 1848 as a reword for their support of the Hasburgs, and Bohemia was given greater self governing rights would that revitalize the Monarchy enough for it to survive WW1? About the Italian war of independance, if the French and the Prussians do not join the Austrian victory is practicaly guaranteed. I am a Croatian, and I always had an interest in A-H since it seems that the best part of our history we were governed by someone who was at least semi-competent (unlike today :(). Your thoughts and ideas are very much appreciated.
 
(...)
With an Emperor more willing to take on the status quo, it is indeed possible for Austria to reign in Hungary, and possibly go for a more equitable distribution of power (a Slavic crown based in Bohemia or Croatia) (...)

Why not have both? So Bohemia and Croatia, especially when implementing a more federal solution. There could be Hungary, Bohemia, Croatia, Austria and possibly Galicia-Lodomeria.
 
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