Surviving Anglo-Saxon culture

Yeah.

Look, the idea of England as a long-standing bastion of anti-Papal sentiment is... well, a myth. Yes, lots of people in England hated the Pope. Just like lots of people in France hated the Pope, lots of people in Spain hated the Pope, lots of people in Germany hated the Pope, and lots of people in Italy hated the Pope, including this guy Dante who you might have heard of, who insisted that a large number of Popes were presently in Hell, stacked on top of each other, and waiting for the new guy to come. There wasn't anything unique about this--popes were frequently pretty easy to hate.

The fact is, no, Harold isn't starting some sort of proto-Protestant Reformation in this scenario, whatever the Pope did or didn't do regarding William. You need printing presses and increased literacy for that baby to come about, and they aren't coming for awhile.
Thank you!

Getting real sick of every TL, no matter how well written, assuming that England is destined to end up at perennial loggerheads with Rome and the Papacy. Hatred of Popes has been a Catholic tradition much longer than a Protestant one, after all:p

More seriously, the purported papal blessing is, IIRC, somewhat debatable in its veracity prior to the invasion. Even if it were absolutely real, it's not like the Pope ever, oh I don't know, supported or engaged in military adventures where he lost and still came out with considerable authority, right? :rolleyes:

On more political questions, do we have any more firm ideas on how relations between peoples on the British isles will change as a result of continuing Anglo-Saxon rule? It seems to be generally agreed that the Anglo-Saxons will be less interested in interfering in Ireland, though the question of Wales, Scotland, or internal minorities such as the remaining Cornish and slightly more Danish English in the north would be dealt with. Most TLs seem to go down a what-might-have-been road where England is more diverse and less imperialistic within the Isles, but how realistic would we say that really is? I can imagine this Britain being more focused on the North Sea trade and so getting into more conflicts and entanglements with the north German, Dutch, and Scandinavian states relative to OTL, and this could potentially be enough of a distraction to keep them from going after the more marginal territories left independent on the island.
 
Thank you!

Getting real sick of every TL, no matter how well written, assuming that England is destined to end up at perennial loggerheads with Rome and the Papacy. Hatred of Popes has been a Catholic tradition much longer than a Protestant one, after all:p

More seriously, the purported papal blessing is, IIRC, somewhat debatable in its veracity prior to the invasion. Even if it were absolutely real, it's not like the Pope ever, oh I don't know, supported or engaged in military adventures where he lost and still came out with considerable authority, right? :rolleyes:

On more political questions, do we have any more firm ideas on how relations between peoples on the British isles will change as a result of continuing Anglo-Saxon rule? It seems to be generally agreed that the Anglo-Saxons will be less interested in interfering in Ireland, though the question of Wales, Scotland, or internal minorities such as the remaining Cornish and slightly more Danish English in the north would be dealt with. Most TLs seem to go down a what-might-have-been road where England is more diverse and less imperialistic within the Isles, but how realistic would we say that really is? I can imagine this Britain being more focused on the North Sea trade and so getting into more conflicts and entanglements with the north German, Dutch, and Scandinavian states relative to OTL, and this could potentially be enough of a distraction to keep them from going after the more marginal territories left independent on the island.

I've nothing really to add to the religious element, except to "me too" the position that a Norman loss doesn't really mean anything insofar as anti-Catholicism growing in the Isles.

Getting to the political side, I'm of the mind that Scotland, Wales, etc. may or may not end up conquered, but either way they'll be dominated in some form or another by England (of course, with the Anglo-Saxons in charge, who's to say Scotland would even exist, and not see the Lowlands end up as a more Gaelic-flavored part of Northumbria whilst the Highlands become a backwater?). As far as diversity goes, well I don't see any reason why they wouldn't end up more multi-ethnic relative to OTL if the politics of the Isles ends up more like a series of vassals around the Big Dog a la Spain did (only without the Reconquista), particularly if they don't see fully conquering the remaining Celt lands as worth the expenditure and focus more on maritime trading with their "favorite" neighbors (bear in mind, there'd still be fair amounts of Celts within their extant borders already, only without the Normans trying to hold everybody under their thumb).

On a somewhat different subject, we don't know how the English would respond to the Crusades; on one hand, they might be somewhat more insular without having Continental holdings to worry about as with the Normans, but on the other hand they too would be good little Catholics and with a population of surplus professional soldiery that might end up in the Holy Land instead of OTL's membership in the Varangian Guard. Could go either way IMO.
 
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Yeah.

Look, the idea of England as a long-standing bastion of anti-Papal sentiment is... well, a myth. Yes, lots of people in England hated the Pope. Just like lots of people in France hated the Pope, lots of people in Spain hated the Pope, lots of people in Germany hated the Pope, and lots of people in Italy hated the Pope, including this guy Dante who you might have heard of, who insisted that a large number of Popes were presently in Hell, stacked on top of each other, and waiting for the new guy to come. There wasn't anything unique about this--popes were frequently pretty easy to hate.

The fact is, no, Harold isn't starting some sort of proto-Protestant Reformation in this scenario, whatever the Pope did or didn't do regarding William. You need printing presses and increased literacy for that baby to come about, and they aren't coming for awhile.

Except what you forget is in this time period the primacy of the Papacy was still a matter up for intense debate, as would be seen in the Investiture Controversy. I'm not arguing you're going to get some kind of proto-Protestant Reformation out of this or anything remotely resembling that.

However you might see some serious divergences in the development of Papal primacy with other controversies coming up in the wings to undermine the authority and prestige of the position in Western Christendom. I don't think you'll see an Orthodox England but I do think you could see, instead of just the Holy Roman Emperor going toe to toe with Rome, a case of where the Emperor is able to rally the support of the Godwinsons and possibly some of the recently-converted Scandinavian monarchs (who flipped as much for the power and support of the Church as any real conviction) in a bloc opposing the excommunication and the right of the Pope to appoint bishops. If that is undermined in any real way then you won't be getting a Protestant Reformation, or indeed even the Catholic Church, as we knew them.
 
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