I've done a bit of searching, and it turns out that the king in question was Goujian of Yue, who ruled what is now southern China in the fifth century BC. Unfortunately I couldn't find any more detail on the suicide soldiers than what I wrote above.
Surprisingly advanced or bizarre tactics from the Ancient Era?
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I've done a bit of searching, and it turns out that the king in question was Goujian of Yue, who ruled what is now southern China in the fifth century BC. Unfortunately I couldn't find any more detail on the suicide soldiers than what I wrote above.
That kinda misses the point on multiple levels.
The hard part about doing anything is coming up with it and then dealing with all the difficulties to proper application. If you have access to the full knowledge and experience of countless that did so then you are superior to others that don't. Not because of anything inherent to you, on the contrary precisely because you are fundamentally the same that having those advantages elevates you above them.
Kinda like having a fully equipped elite soldier from millennia ago up against a random person you picked off the streets, gave a gun and quickly explained how to fire. In all likelihood the first is way better in every aspect of a fight but the gun is an overwhelming advantage he doesn't even know about to possibly try prepare for.
I'm so sorry, I've already given the book back to the library. It was source & in the bibliography of "The Byzantine Art of War" by Michael Decker.
https://www.amazon.ca/Byzantine-Art-War-Michael-Decker/dp/1594161682
Emperor RyRy
Banned
I'm really interested how the Mongols qualified as having near-modern command and control structures. What did they have that we have today that gave them an advantage?
Saphroneth
Banned
There were a few things.
Firstly, they had a modular command structure (we use four or five units per level, they used ten - ten squads to a company, ten companies to a regiment, ten regiments to a division or tumen) and the tumen could operate as essentially independent armies or as units to be combined into a larger army.
Secondly, they had a great courier system, so they could coordinate movements across large areas. The shining example of this is the invasion of Eastern Europe - Subudai's fifteen tumen coordinated their actions across a front stretching from the Baltic to the Black Sea, making use of their excellent and standardized C3I setup to launch divisional feints at the strategic level while also controlling divisions at the operational level.
The decimal divisions are hardly a Mongol invention... It's common to all the steppes successful khanates. It's common to most of the Turkic tribes. It was used by Magyars, It was firstly documented to be used, if I remember well, by the Persians during Darius I.
What make them so successful was, among others and what you mentioned below, the excellent stock of commanders at mingghan (1.000) and tumen (10.000) levels, their strategic and tactic understanding and, especially, the absolute obedience of their soldiers.
Indeed, the communication between units was amazingly good. One thing they were revolutionary, was the employment of a sort of "strategical timetable" for coordinate actions across huge distances (see the invasions of Poland and Hungary).
Saphroneth
Banned
I think we're agreeing here - the obedience, the good commanders, the standardized division and the good C3I across huge distances are pretty much all required to do what the Mongols were doing. They just combined them together with devastating skill.
longsword14
Banned
@Saphroneth
A tumen is made of 10000 men. Subutai had three (or so the records say).
Nomad horsemen, mobility, numbers etc. aside, one thing that they seemed to posses was the ability to think of war over very large areas. Many enemies were in a sticky situation even before hostilities had truly started and they (the opposition) had no inkling of the wider area around them.
A tumen is made of 10000 men. Subutai had three (or so the records say).
Nomad horsemen, mobility, numbers etc. aside, one thing that they seemed to posses was the ability to think of war over very large areas. Many enemies were in a sticky situation even before hostilities had truly started and they (the opposition) had no inkling of the wider area around them.
Saphroneth
Banned
I had the understanding he was the overall commander of the whole invasion of Russia and eastern Europe, which had fifteen tumen.
longsword14
Banned
The entirety of men under Chinggis were not more than 200,000 overall (a little more at best). The force that went into Rus was two out of three tumen, during the reconnaissance in force. More men were brought back in 1236, but still the reinforcements about doubled the previous numbers.
The 15 tumens were needed else where.
It's respecting a timetable. For example, Subotai had 2 tumens for the great raid west. He had tactical independence but at the strategic level he neded to accomplish several objectives in a certain time.
He crushed Georgia and then the Russians and Cumans but returned back as he was expected to meet Genghis Khan a certain date.
Another example is the Poland invasion. That was simply a distraction from the real invasion of Hungary. After ravaging Poland and burning Moravia, the Mongol general turned South to meet Batu and the main army.
Same for the invasion of Hungary. The Mongols invaded in 4 columns. But they had meeting date at certain points.
That was something the Europeans do not understood. They see the Mongols retreating unexpectedly, sometime without pushing their advantage.
I hope I clarify the concept rather than confusing it even more.
Emperor RyRy
Banned
Ah, makes much more sense. Thanks a lot.
I'm currently trying to write a TL and I just want to know why certain armies were so superior in certain eras.
Oddest (and cold-blooded) tactics definitely bring Olga of Kiev to mind. According to the Tales of Past Years/Primary Chronicle Olga of Kiev was left the official regent of Kiev Rus when her husband was killed by Drevlians when their son was only three years old. The Drevlians wanted Olga to marry their prince. The Drevlians sent twenty of their best men to persuade her to marry and effectively give up power over Kiev Rus. She had them buried alive and then sent word to the prince she would accept his offer, but required the most distinguished Drevlians to join her on the journey so her people might accept the marriage. When the prince and his men arrived, Olga invited them to clean up in their bathhouse. Once they were inside she locked the doors and burned them alive.
Olga then invited yet more Drevlians to attend their funerals. Once she had them drunk her soldiers killed more than 5,000 of them. Olga then amassed an army and besieged their village to kill off the survivors. The Drevlians begged for mercy. Olga decided three pigeons and three sparrows from each household would be tribute enough. The Drevlians complied. Then Olga had sulfur tied to every bird and ordered them released. When the birds flew back to their nests, they set the village on fire to flush out whatever Drevlians were left. Even if parts of this story were fabricated or exaggerated later on, there still has to be some real bizarre tactics at the core of it all.
For advanced tactics, the Garamantes were able to use an intricate system of underground tunnels and shafts to mine enough water from the Sahara Desert to have a thriving culture. Their culture only really collapsed when they depleted the finite sources of water they could reach.
Nan Madol was the seat of the Saudeleur dynasty on Pohnpei Island. Nan Madol was constructed in a lagoon and composed of small artificial islands and stone buildings linked by a network of canals. It is called the 'Venice of the Pacific.' As Nan Madol had no natural resources of its own, the Saudeleur dynasty relied on food and materials grown on the rest of the island. When the last rulers grew too demanding, they were overthrown in 1628 and Nan Madol abandoned. Its ruins later influenced Lovecraft's sunken city of R'lyeh, just to tell you how bizarre its architecture was considered.
Olga then invited yet more Drevlians to attend their funerals. Once she had them drunk her soldiers killed more than 5,000 of them. Olga then amassed an army and besieged their village to kill off the survivors. The Drevlians begged for mercy. Olga decided three pigeons and three sparrows from each household would be tribute enough. The Drevlians complied. Then Olga had sulfur tied to every bird and ordered them released. When the birds flew back to their nests, they set the village on fire to flush out whatever Drevlians were left. Even if parts of this story were fabricated or exaggerated later on, there still has to be some real bizarre tactics at the core of it all.
For advanced tactics, the Garamantes were able to use an intricate system of underground tunnels and shafts to mine enough water from the Sahara Desert to have a thriving culture. Their culture only really collapsed when they depleted the finite sources of water they could reach.
Nan Madol was the seat of the Saudeleur dynasty on Pohnpei Island. Nan Madol was constructed in a lagoon and composed of small artificial islands and stone buildings linked by a network of canals. It is called the 'Venice of the Pacific.' As Nan Madol had no natural resources of its own, the Saudeleur dynasty relied on food and materials grown on the rest of the island. When the last rulers grew too demanding, they were overthrown in 1628 and Nan Madol abandoned. Its ruins later influenced Lovecraft's sunken city of R'lyeh, just to tell you how bizarre its architecture was considered.
Although they did not ultimately prevaill over the Romans, the Celts really should be appreciated more on a military level. Ultimately, lots of smaller confederations or individual tribes did incredibly well against what was effectively a nation state in a way almost unheard of outside of nomadic civilisation.
Certainly their use of psychological warfare in a culturally consistent way is incredible. Wherever the romans fought them, instigating fear and in often linked way across multiple countries was central to the celtic tactic. Even the fall of the druids was noted, in common fashion, as terrifying to the Romans even in their victory.
"On the shore stood the opposing army with its dense array of armed warriors, while between the ranks dashed women, in black attire like the Furies, with hair dishevelled, waving brands. All around, the Druids, lifting up their hands to heaven, and pouring forth dreadful imprecations, scared our soldiers by the unfamiliar sight, so that, as if their limbs were paralysed, they stood motionless, and exposed to wounds." - Tacitus.
Certainly their use of psychological warfare in a culturally consistent way is incredible. Wherever the romans fought them, instigating fear and in often linked way across multiple countries was central to the celtic tactic. Even the fall of the druids was noted, in common fashion, as terrifying to the Romans even in their victory.
"On the shore stood the opposing army with its dense array of armed warriors, while between the ranks dashed women, in black attire like the Furies, with hair dishevelled, waving brands. All around, the Druids, lifting up their hands to heaven, and pouring forth dreadful imprecations, scared our soldiers by the unfamiliar sight, so that, as if their limbs were paralysed, they stood motionless, and exposed to wounds." - Tacitus.
I think we probably don't understand them. It seems entirely logical as a DEFENSIVE measure - no light cavalry or infantry skirmisher can get close enough to deliver a passing blow
The forest of impaled Turks outside Targoviste, by Vlad III Tepes/Impaler of Wallachia (aka Dracula) count as psychological warfare? Or bizarre tactics?
If not, than his night attack wich nearly killed Sultan Mehmet II, it definitely do. The attack was done with a small token force dressed in Turks wich spoken Turkish. The Ottoman army panicked thinking that the enemy is everywhere and some were traitors. Many slaughtered among themselves.
If not, than his night attack wich nearly killed Sultan Mehmet II, it definitely do. The attack was done with a small token force dressed in Turks wich spoken Turkish. The Ottoman army panicked thinking that the enemy is everywhere and some were traitors. Many slaughtered among themselves.