Monty is made Supreme Commander instead of Ike. What happens?
Nazi's hold out till 46,
Uhuh, whatever.
Montgomery was a supremely competent general, and certainly far superior to any of the American army or army group commanders in NW Europe. He did lack their massive PR machines that have so misled historians since.
He also completely saved the Americans at the Bulge.
The problem was that he said all this at the time, and this is why he would be no good, he simply annoyed too many people.
Wow, what have you been smoking?
Funny, the German generals did after the war.Even his staunchest supporter wouldn’t say Montgomery was supremely able.
Montgomery was capable enough, in an unimaginative way. What put him apart from other British senior commanders was that he realized that British soldiers weren’t particularly good at fighting the Germans. The only way to defeat them was to assemble overwhelming superiority in equipment and men and then slowly hammer them to defeat in set piece battles. Montgomery knew that whenever the British tried anything more adventurous than a slow, methodical, plodding advance, the Germans would outthink, outmaneuvre and then outfight the Brits.
Much of his slowness and lack of decisive results in 1944 are down to his great appreciation that England was running out of infantry replacements. He effectively had to juggle the need to keep casualties down with the need to appear a viable fighting force to secure political influence for Britain in a post war world.
I agree with this and what you said. However, we do have the example of what happened in the Bulge when he took command of much of the front. The US corps commanders largely found him excellent to work with, and he was able to manage things when Ike and Bradley literally did not have a clue. If not for Montgomery the Meuse crossings would not even have beenblocked.Politically, there was no way Montgomery could become Supreme Commander.
Much of his slowness and lack of decisive results in 1944 are down to his great appreciation that England was running out of infantry replacements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranoncles
Wow, what have you been smoking?
History books, only I read them first...
Though apparently Wales had loads of them....
And I'm with Wozza on this one - Monty was a tool of the first degree, but he knew what he was doing. The British were generally no worse than the Americans in battlefield performance, although a nod must go to the Canadians and Poles, who were both pretty good, as were the other Commonwealth troops. All were worse than the Germans in small-unit tactical encounters, but the idea of the British being "out-thought & out-manoeuvred" is ludicrous in the context of NW Europe.
the story of the British/Commonwealth campaign in NWE.Are you seriously implying that there are significant differences in the level of weakness between the Commonweakth and American campaigns? Are you seriously implying that Eisenhower or Bradley were better generals?
the story of the British/Commonwealth campaign in NWE.Are you seriously implying that there are significant differences in the level of weakness between the Commonweakth and American campaigns? Are you seriously implying that Eisenhower or Bradley were better generals?
I guess I am. One can argue that with a little more boldness or talent, the allied commanders in NWE could have wrapped up the war by Christmas '44. After all, they had ENIGMA and should have known how weak the Germans really were. Yet they exhibited caution beyond basic military soundness.
Was Eisenhower a better general? Yes, very much so. Eisenhower's battlefield performance was never put to the test but he performed his role as international theatre commander in a way no other theatre commander did. MacArthur is a perfect example of a theatre commander who totally ignored political-national relations and was therefore cordially hated by his own Australian generals. It could be argued that few other than Eisenhower could have done as well in that particular role in the most important theatre.
Monty could never play well with others and it would have been that quality he would have needed to command American forces. Even after the Bulge when he had American forces, he is not know for having "saved" the northern shoulder but for pissing off the Americans with his ill-advised showboating.
Montgomery simply lacked the sensitivity to survive in a political environment. As long as he was protected against his own nature by Brooke and Eisenhower, he could function. Left alone, he would have made too many enemies. So yes, Eisenhower was better.
Was Bradley better? Well, he did do better breaking out of Normandy. And he managed to make use of the windfall at Remagen in a way that Bernard "let's tidy up the battlefield and move so slowly the Jerry's might die of old " Montgomery never could have.
Bradley would also not have cocked up Market-Garden in such an appalling manner. So yes, Bradley was probably better.
I guess I am. One can argue that with a little more boldness or talent, the allied commanders in NWE could have wrapped up the war by Christmas '44.
And with good reason. I notice that Eisenhower did not take active command during the Bulge for instance but left it to Montgomery.Was Eisenhower a better general? Yes, very much so. Eisenhower's battlefield performance was never put to the test .
Was Bradley better? Well, he did do better breaking out of Normandy. And he managed to make use of the windfall at Remagen in a way that Bernard "let's tidy up the battlefield and move so slowly the Jerry's might die of old " Montgomery never could have.
Bradley would also not have cocked up Market-Garden in such an appalling manner. So yes, Bradley was probably better.
Possibly, but surely then the
I will read the Carlo D'Este article you posted at one point though. I am only familiar with the outlines of his work.
Nazi's hold out till 46, hitler dead and SS running things.
Soviets in charge of europe, unless ss go with sucicide assassination plot on Stalin.
You might see a japanese attack on Russia.
Someone will sue for peace.
Why, Patton gone. Of course it might be President Patton.