Supposing the Edwardian world just keeps puttering on...

BlondieBC

Banned
On what grounds? Would the lack of WW1 make Einstein, Meitner, Bohr, Fermi or Planck be smarter or think faster? By that much?
OTL, 1939 only saw the proof of nuclear fission actually EXISTING!

More funding. More university students. Germany was also the leader in nuclear physics and the loss greatly harmed research. And in 1933, there was discovery of Plutonium but no follow up studies. In a peaceful world, there is almost certainly multiple follow up studies the next year. And think about WW1. How many engineers and scientist died on the fields of battle? Think about all the crippled me.

Now without being at war, which nation would devote that much capital into developing a bomb which
a- might not work at all
b- if it works, might destroy the planet instead of just a city

So, even in OTL's WW2, only the USA had the capability to actually pull that through. A four or five way nuclear race as in TL-191 is imaginable in peace-time, but it would work in slow-motion compared to the Manhattan project.

My idea for a realistic timeframe would be that closely around 1950, the first nuclear weapon is tested. First possesion of a nuclear bomb? Probabilities are: 50% Germany (frankly, the German scientific position in this field was amazing, especially if not weakened by emigration), 30% USA (very much depending on the political will to undertake the project), 15% Great Britain, 5% others.

Many things wrong here. Germany will have an economy similar to the USA. So with the UK. Not identical but in the same league. So lets get to funding. It cost 1 or 2 billion USD OTL. It was a hugely wasteful project started before the physics was understood. Whole cities were built, then leveled a few years later. If you were designing a way to maximize the cost, you could not do much better. So realistic cost is probably around 250 to 500 million USD. So lets look at the cost compared to the German military budget. After the issues with devaluation of USD, you are looking at 200 million USD or so. Or about 1 billion marks. Spread over 10 years, this is 100 million marks per year. The German military budget was 2500 million. All for a weapon that can take the Russian hordes off the table for the rest of time. Easy call. And since we know the medical value will fund basic research until the physic are understood (i.e you can build a bomb), it is an easy call for the German GHQ.

I can't rule out your time frame. It is not so outside possibility to say ASB in all ATL, it is just very unlikely. Medical research alone will get you plutonium piles in the 1920's or 1930's. Once you have that worked out and running in labs, you have the needed understanding. It is just funding after this, and a little engineering.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
I love demographic views at topics on that forum. But please calculate that number to me. If you had said 100 million, I would have bought it at once. 300 million seems totally exagerrated to me.

Example: Germany in 1910 had close to 65million inhabitants. For my model I assume the population growth of the period of 1925-33 (4.73% in 8 years) as typical for the period of 1910-1950. I round it up to 5% even.
1918: 68,25m (instead of 60.8 in 1919 OTL)
1926: 71,66m (instead of 62.4 in 1925 OTL)
1934: 75,25m (instead of 65.4 in 1933 OTL)
1942: 79,01m (in 1914borders instead of 79.4 in 1939 OTL - as Großdeutschland!)
1950: 82,96m (instead of 68,23 in FRG/GDR combined)

Since then, I would assume a population growth consistent with OTL. It SHOULD be even lower as this peaceful Germany would be richer and go through demographic transition earlier, also not have a post-WW2 baby-boom. However, this is probably offset by not having the very very low birth-rate in the Communist GDR.

So....Germany in OTL 2012 has 81.843 million inhabitants, that includes millions of immigrants, a tendency which might or might not happen ITTL. A rise by almost 20% in 62 years.
For the sake of argument, I allow the peaceful Kaiserreich a 30% rise.
That means 107.9 million Germans in 2012 ITTL.

That is an extra of 26 million Germans ITTL. Where are the other 274 million white people coming from? Take into consideration here, that Germany demographically suffered quite hard in both world wars. Not hardest, but it was hit more significantly than e.g. Britain.

First take 26 million. Then think about the rest of Europe. France 40 m. A-H 50 m. UK 50 m. Italy 30m. Russia 130m. Easily 300 million more. So take your 26 million and add another 125 or so. We are up to 150 million.

Now think about WW2. Did you forget the 30-50 million dead people in Europe. Up to 200 million. All this is ball park. A lot will depend on birth and death assumptions one makes. And these dead people also will grow with natural population growth. For example, the 6 million dead Jews could easily have 12+ million missing people today.

Ok, now to Germany as an example. So take 65.1 million in 1913 and add 825 per year to get to 1918. So I get 69.2 million in 1918. Then take 8 years to 1926 with say a lower 800K per year. I get 75.6 compared to your 71.7. Then say take 8 more years to 1934 at 700K per year. I get 81.2. So I would say at least 35 million more Germans which if we bring up the other parts, gives us 210 million more Europeans plus the people who dont' die in WW2. I think 300 million is a good discussion figure. I would not argue with 200 million or 400 million. I am also a technology moves faster guy with antibiotics in the 1930's.

This is just the way long term demographics work. Change a growth rate by 0.1 or 0.2 and things are a lot different.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
1 million dead 18-30 year old males has a much smaller demographic effect than 300,000 dead 18-30 year old women. In Western Europe most of the dead were men so the demographic effect was limited, in Eastern Europe a lot more women and children died. While there will definitely be a lot more white people in general the big increase won't be in people of Western European descent but Eastern Europeans. There will probably be twice as many Poles, Belorussians and Ukrainians plus 50% more Russians and that's just the bigger countries. Other groups like the Rusyns and Balkan Germans which got basically wiped out in the real world will still be around.

Partially agreed. In this time period, you tended to have about 2% surplus men (more women died in childbirth than today). This is why smaller wars had little demographic impact. I also agree that areas that lost more women, often due to disease will see a bigger burst. So obviously in WW1 and WW2 (one war to me), the biggest losers are Jews then Slavs followed by Germans.


The issue with WW1 is too issues. Roughly speaking, you lose 1/6 of marriage/reproduction age men and cripple another 1/6. This is why you see birth rates plummet so much. For example, you see Germany go from 1.8 million prewar births per year to about 1.2 million for a 1/3 decline. Base population fell by only about 1/20th. You also have the baby shortage in the war as men at the front are not having sex with their wife. You can still see these echos in Russia population pyramids.


I also should be clear. I see 300 million more Europeans outside of Europe.
 
Partially agreed. In this time period, you tended to have about 2% surplus men (more women died in childbirth than today). This is why smaller wars had little demographic impact. I also agree that areas that lost more women, often due to disease will see a bigger burst. So obviously in WW1 and WW2 (one war to me), the biggest losers are Jews then Slavs followed by Germans.

According to books read WW1 had a major effect on UK marriage patterns that were presumably replicated elsewhere. Prior to WW1 roughly 8% of men and 5% women never married and had children, for whatever reasons (not meeting Mr/Mrs Right, being gay, being really ugly etc.). During the inter-war period due to the new gender imbalance that changed, the rate for women went up while only 3% of surviving, non crippled WW1 veterans failed to find a wife. So to an extent there were cushioning effects that lessened the demographics impact.
 
One thing that is likely:

When nuclear technology is discovered, whether that be earlier or later, there will probably be more widespread usage of it for electrical power than OTL, at least initially before long-term effects of radiation are discovered.
 
One thing that is likely:

When nuclear technology is discovered, whether that be earlier or later, there will probably be more widespread usage of it for electrical power than OTL, at least initially before long-term effects of radiation are discovered.

What makes you say that?
 

BlondieBC

Banned
What makes you say that?

I tend to agree with him. IOTL, nuclear fission appeared as a weapon. ITTL, nuclear fission will first be as a way to make life saving cancer treatments. The physics and engineering of a plutonium pile will likely be worked out before major weaponization funding is authorized. The basic old Russian reactor (Chernobyl) is basically a plutonium pile modified for electricity production. You could actually see a small commercial power plant before the first test of the bomb. The radiation dangers were largely understood from the use as a weapon IOTL. So ITTL, you could easily see many power plants built before people understand the danger of the radioactive waste. Perhaps even cheaply built with few safe guards for safety. After all, if the Chernobyl explosion was just a conventional explosion of the same size, it would be largely forgotten by now. So you hook up the plutonium pile to the existing steam turbines with few safety upgrades.
 

Anderman

Donor
Wikipedia has some data about the french fertility rate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France#Vital_statistics.5B13.5D

in 1901 it was 3,02 children per women.
When even France is which is supposed to have a demographic crisis has a fertility rate well above the replacement level then imho we can assume that the fertility rates in europe will stay above the replacement level.

And in a more conservative society the use of contraceptives will not be tolerate as in OTL.
 
Has everyone forgotten about the radium girls...? They certainly had learned that radioactive materials were dangerous before any plausible development of nuclear reactors. Now, this was more of an acute dosage scenario, so they probably aren't going to provide for adequate safety against chronic but low doses of radiation, but they aren't exactly going to be throwing together piles of plutonium or uranium in the open air.

There's also the countervailing factor that nuclear energy in this scenario isn't being developed on a crash basis for nuclear weapons, at least at first, but for civilian power plants. While I am too wise to believe that corporations are really all that safety-conscious, merely removing extreme time pressures would greatly improve safety by reducing the incentive to engage in very dangerous modifications of poorly understood plant designs (I am particularly thinking of the Windscale plants here).
 
Without WWI and the Depression to bankrupt Britain, I wonder if the upper class and aristocracy with its servant-class culture would have persisted in their original form longer. Would Parliament be as eager to pass the inheritance tax laws that broke up many of the old estates and great manor houses?
I think the lack of a Great War has far more of an impact upon the aristocracies of central and eastern Europe, many of whom were subject to expropriation or land reform, than it does upon the British upper class. Without the Great War the great Continental monarchies presumably survive and along with them the aristocracies of those states continue to maintain much more of their social, political and economic pre-eminence than they did after the War IOTL.

In Britain the picture is a little more mixed. Inheritance taxes were introduced in the early 1890s so they already exist regardless of the outbreak of the First World War. There was also political pressure from many in the Liberal Party to reduce the aristocracy's political and economic power i.e. through Lloyd George's Land Campaign which might find more expression without a major War. Added to this was the sense amongst many aristocrats that the old era of a leisured existence from the proceeds of one's agricultural rents and commercial stocks was passing away anyway - the agricultural crisis of the 1880s onwards made agricultural land far less profitable and forced many landowners to sell up. The agricultural depression would still be ongoing here and would still mean that many of the smaller or less profitable estates would be broken up.

However, at the same time no War means a smaller state and lower taxes. It also means that the rise of the Labour Party is either slowed or stunted, so upper class politicians can rise through the ranks of the Liberals as well as the Tories. In addition more of the pre-war social fabric will remain intact for longer, so you don't have quite the same servant shortage or pressure upon wages that resulted from the mass mobilisation of the male and female workforces during the Great War. So I'd say that the old aristocratic way of life lingers on for a bit longer than it did in our timeline, and indeed probably more of it would exist today than it does IOTL given the lack of the massive social upheavals caused by the two World Wars. If society changes a bit more slowly this gives the aristocracy much more room and time to adapt.
 
Without WWI and WWII, the U.S. military would be a shadow of its current size, barring some large conflict closer to home, perhaps in South America. So I'm not convinced that the military impetus that gave us cellphones and the Internet would exist. Would Einstein and his fellow scientists still immigrate to the United States with the rise of Nazism in Europe or would Germany be the first nation to develop a nuclear weapon?

Cell phones is something i give you it might easily take quite longer to develop. In fact, it's not hard to speculate that they would be vastly different in development, probably we would never have a 1G nor 2G networks. Cellphone-like devices might be simply wifi internet terminals with vo-IP, only created after internet becomes a necessity, as a gadget to be permanently online.
On the other hand, I think internet would be developed at the same time or earlier. Quite possibly in the British empire.

Without WWI, could have the Nazis risen to power? In any case, jewish immigration from the European countries to the US would have been even greater ITTL: no WWI means no British mandate of Palestine, which mean much smaller jewish influx to Palestine. And meanwhile, antisemitism would be as popular as ever in Europe until much later than IOTL. Would have Einstein emigrated? Not unlikely. Probably not in 1932, maybe later, when the antisemitic atmosphere became worse.
Or maybe the Dreyfus Affair ripples, reawakened by his death, could have created a wave of sympathy for the jewish people and against their discrimination? Who knows.

Not having open wars, i.e. a period of cold war or armed peace doesn't mean that military research is less intense. Instead the focus goes to the strategy rather than tactics. Creating intelligence networks is of strategical importance. Setting satellites in orbits is also strategical. Rocketry is tactical. Cell phones are tactical...

In this scenario, rocketry will take longer to develop, without a WWII. But as soon as it's developed, the satellites will come much faster.

While the world would still be multipolar and the empires in direct competition with each other, there would still be blocs of sympathy and enmity, which is what would dictate where scientific research collaboration would happen. It's not difficult to imagine these blocs would roughly belong with the Triple Alliance and the Central Empires.
The Central Empires research would be physically localized in the German institutions. The distances aren't too big, and the scientists can meet regularly without problem.
In the Alliance, though we have 3 nations fairly separate physically: Britain and France on one side of Europe and Russia on the other side. Plus Britain, is going to get a good scientific contribution from its colonies, mostly India. Furthermore, the USA is likely going to be part of that bloc of sympathy and scientific collaboration. So we have that the Alliance science is very spread out and can't realistically meet at will, without incurring in large expenses.
(Compare with OTL, where both blocs were fairly centralized, specially at first)

Collaboration would heavily rely on telecommunications radio and phone. The computing machines that would begin to be developed for science and engineering would probably be sit in the metropolis. Friendly scientists overseas would want to use them without having to travel to the site of the computer. Instead of having to bother their colleagues who live next to the computers to input the calculations for them, a method for radio* devices to interface directly with the computers might be developed without much delay. This interfacing would open the path to share data with smaller computers which would be more plentiful and spread out. The embryo of Internet. This process would be, of course, accelerated greatly if the imperial governments begin to fund great-science projects.

*this depends on which era the computer development begins. Engineering companies based on the metropolis might become large consumers of computing power, and having this kind of networking would benefit them as they can use a single computer for projects all over the colonies. So depending on the era it can be radio or telephone as IOTL.
 
On the other hand, I think internet would be developed at the same time or earlier. Quite possibly in the British empire.

Interesting thought. Or modern communication development takes an altogether different path, with the television as the key proponent which spawns all the other aspects of 21st century global communication.

Without WWI, could have the Nazis risen to power?

There would not even be a Nazi party. As the Edwardian world, the old Anti-semite splinter parties of the Kaiserreich just keep puttering on, but fail to get a massive electorate. The whole politisation and radicalisation of the Weimar Republic falls flat. No Treaty of Versailles. No war guilt clause. No reparations. No occupation of the Rhine resp. the Ruhr. No hyperinflation. No war bonds. No bourgeoisie unsure which kind of regime they actually want. No revolution, no communist uprisings.
No Adolf Hitler as a soldier. No Adolf Hitler in politics. No Göring as a war hero.

Would have Einstein emigrated? Not unlikely. Probably not in 1932, maybe later, when the antisemitic atmosphere became worse.

As migration likely, as emigration unlikely.
Prior to 1933, Einstein enjoyed an excellent academical career in Germany, being director of the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Institut für Physik in Berlin.
As I said before, it is rather not likely for the antisemitic atmosphere in Germany being any worse than in 1932. Additionally, Einstein's emigration was rather by accident set in '32. He had planned to divy up his time between Princeton and Berlin - and chose not to return after Jan30th, 1933 already being in Princeton at this time. Without Hitler taking over, he would have continued to live in both places. He may have decided for one of them as he grew older - or as a true citizen of the world gone somewhere else instead - but one could not have called that emigration.


Not having open wars, i.e. a period of cold war or armed peace doesn't mean that military research is less intense. Instead the focus goes to the strategy rather than tactics. Creating intelligence networks is of strategical importance. Setting satellites in orbits is also strategical. Rocketry is tactical. Cell phones are tactical...

Interesting point, makes sense.

###

Question is: how long would the pre-1914 alliances continue to exist? They would lack the ideological cement which made the 1949-89 bipolar world last so long.
My guess is that the next generation of CP-political leaders would de-escalate greatly. Franz Ferdinand was known for his aversion of general war and even of a greater war against Serbia "which serves no serious purpose", Karl would be even meeker.
It is anybody's guess if Wilhelm II wouldn't be forced to leave the throne prior to his death in 1941. Some scandals he was involved with created a lot of opposition. It is, however, given the butterflies, not safe to say who is his successor. A lot of what happened within the dynasty depending on marriages which are improbable without the revolution. Given OTL's rulers of the House of Hohenzollern, from Louis Ferdinand on they would be rather decent blokes.

But: most people before 1914 expected a major political reform to happen soon, and actually the war (even prior to the Septemberreforms of 1918) brought about that. Someone new on the throne might lead to exactly that.

Also, concerning the main antagonisms in Western Europe: France would get over Alsace-Lorraine as the generation which experienced 1870 dies out, especially the longer the autonomy granted in 1911 would work. French minority rights in the Reichsland, despite incidents like Saverne, were rather better than for many other minorities in Europe at the time.

Similar things might be there for Italian irredentism. If the Habsburs are smart, they stage a plebiscite in Trieste and beforehands make the people conscious what non-existent economic role their harbor would play within Italia.

Austria-Hungary would probably undergo a strange series of reforms from above. I am certain that FF had something on the back of his mind, probably along the lines of erasing the 1867-Ausgleich and starting federalization from a new.

Russia is a toss-up. Both OTL revolutions needed wars as a catalyst, so either a revolution occurs nonetheless, or it goes a "Chinese way" where fast economical development keeps the emerging middle-class content.

More funding. More university students. Germany was also the leader in nuclear physics and the loss greatly harmed research.
In Germany's case, butterflies might on the contrary lead in the short run to less university students, as the Weimar governments made it a central policy to widely expands access to universities.
Germany will have an economy similar to the USA. So with the UK. Not identical but in the same league.
No way. You greatly underestimate the US industry here during the first half of the 20th century. 1914-Germany had the potential to surpass Britain and become the number #2 player in global economics, but they are not in the position to threaten the US top economical position. They are a long shot away from the US in 1914, and there is no evidence that they could miraculously catch up without the US for some reason failing miserably.
The potential just is not there, and anywhere Germans develop it, the Americans have to fail epicly to not keep its position.
I am not saying that German (or other powers') enterprises cannot compete in general with American ones, but not as to reaching their economies reaching the US-GNP. (GNP per head might be a different thing in the long run.)
There might be a new deal if
- the US manage to fail miserably in its policies, BUT without affecting other economies
- China, Russia and/or India use their potential earlier/better than OTL
- (Central?) European powers start economic integration to challenge the US
-European powers manage to miraculously integrate and develop their colonies in an unforeseen measure. I know that you assume just that, but again, Germany is then not in a position to benefit massively from that due to their relatively small empire (even if perhaps expanded by parts of the Portuguese and/or Belgian ones)
It was a hugely wasteful project started before the physics was understood. Whole cities were built, then leveled a few years later. If you were designing a way to maximize the cost, you could not do much better.
But, if you use a way which is more effective and less costly and also starts after "the physics was understood", you do not accelerate, but decellerate the process, IMHO. Of course, once the groundwork is laid, the whole process is cheap for a developed nation. If Germany were hell-bent in OTL 2012 to get its own nukes, it would probably be a matter of months instead of years. But being the first is always the most difficult. Only with luck, or very thorough and well-though out theoretical planning (which takes time again), you can prevent from running into one or two dead-end-streets.
Counter-example: development of nuclear fusion. Goes nowhere despite peacetime.
All for a weapon that can take the Russian hordes off the table for the rest of time. Easy call. And since we know the medical value will fund basic research until the physic are understood (i.e you can build a bomb), it is an easy call for the German GHQ.
Which would, without defeat in WW1, be a very conservative body - just like probably all other nation's military planners. They would fiddle around with *tanks in the 1930s and have internal fights if this could be the next big thing in military doctrine.
Also, the Hohenzollern-regime would NOT feel hard-pressed to have a weapon beating the Russians if that is a nation which which they had tensions sometime, but no war since 1762 (or 1812 if anybody counts the token involvement).
The German military budget in OTL's Kaiserreich was an expense which the Reich was hard-pressed to get by. If peace wouldn't only last for 40, but for 50 or 75 years (counted 1871 onwards), the idea of calming down a little and get more understanding in Europe would not be lessen, but increase.
And if you argue, that researching a bomb is easier once the whole science behind it is understood in theory... then my argument runs that once the full effect of radiation etc. is understood, the idea to have a superbomb to blow up your immediate neighbours becomes a lot less alluring - unless a war-situation forces you to desperate measures.
Also, I would argue, without the break-down of civilization 14-18 meant, there would rather be more inhibitions anyways to develop weapons of mass-killing such as lethal chemical weapons, nuclear weapons or even strategic bombers.
Not everything that can be done is done. Otherwise, armoured cars could have been rushing through Belgium in 1914. Technology, ideas and loads of money to be poured into the military were there.
Medical research alone will get you plutonium piles in the 1920's or 1930's. Once you have that worked out and running in labs, you have the needed understanding. It is just funding after this, and a little engineering.
Plutonium piles before it is noticed OTL (1934, not 33, btw as to two Wikipedias). Now come on, you accelerate scientific progress here as if you have the singularity close-by!
However, in case you misunderstood me, I am not a proponent of the "war as father of all things"-theory. I would say that the general technological level would be slightly higher without both World Wars, and especially Europe's economical position would be a good deal better throughout the 20th century.
But I do not see weapon development to be revolutionary in the absense of war. Compare the leaps actually undertaken in 14-18 to the changes between 1865 and 1914. Surely, there was groundwork laid, but just as much ignored. To a lesser extent, this was still to a degree true when you compare 39-45 to 1919-38.
Now think about WW2. Did you forget the 30-50 million dead people in Europe.
Not at all, otherwise I would't have let the German population grow by ca. 4 million in 1942-50 instead of shrinking it. So, my figures already INCLUDE the assumption that WW2 and the subsequent population losses did not happen.
As I already discussed with Thoresby, additional population growth ITTL is predominantly Eastern European, but not French, not British, neither South-European or Scandinavian. These populations will not lead to the effects in Africa you described; only few of the cases you described could IMHO be tilted, most probably this means Libya, Algeria and German South-West. Give or take a few "Cape Province"-style enclaves with a strong minority of European descent.
Note also, that I already exaggerated the German population growth, especially during the last half of the 20th century. My assumption assumes a higher birth rate in Germany post-1950 than in OTL.
Ok, now to Germany as an example. So take 65.1 million in 1913 and add 825 per year to get to 1918. So I get 69.2 million in 1918. Then take 8 years to 1926 with say a lower 800K per year. I get 75.6 compared to your 71.7. Then say take 8 more years to 1934 at 700K per year. I get 81.2. So I would say at least 35 million more Germans
How you come from 81.2 in 1934 to 116million in 2012 is left unexplained.
And IMO, you work on maximum assumptions. German pop growth OTL peaked in the 1895-1900 period at 1.52% p.a. and generally declined since then, peacetime or not. Already in 1905-10, it was down to 1.18%, to 0.58% in 1925-33, in 33-39 back up to (only, given the incentives!) 0.85%, the baby-boom of the 50s and 60s meant actually meagre 0.65% in 1950-70, and since then meagre 0.13%, mainly through immigration, p.a.
Even if I use the 3rd-Reich percentage as a figure for 1910-50, we reach 91 million then. With OTL figures from then on, we are not at 116 million (35 million more than today), but at 108 million only. Back at the 26 million additional Germans I initially talked about. Again, we might talk of even less Germans given the next paragraphs of mine!
(Addionally, the numbers of pre-1918 I worked with as a base include Alsace-Lorraine and other territories which should have been deduced right away, leading to even lower projections.)
A lot will depend on birth and death assumptions one makes.
And that is the point. We assume a peaceful and more prosperous Europe throughout the 20th century. This means that European societies IMHO will move earlier towards zero-growth, perhaps markedly so! And only very few German, British or French parents will say, "Jawohl, we will raise a third or a fourth child to settle Africa for the White man". Even in Nazi Germany, that approach only worked to a (from the Nazi's point of view) disappointing degree.
My assumption would be, that the demographic developments are more similar to French growth of less than 50% throughout the century, a figure too markedly low and long-term to be explained by Verdun alone. The only optimistic thing in this model is that it trends towards a stable population in the 21st century (as opposed to Germany, Italy e.a.).
I am also a technology moves faster guy with antibiotics in the 1930's.
...and Anti-Baby-Pill in the 1940s? What then?
And, now that we come to it, how about a perhaps increased number of casualties in de-colonization-conflicts?
 
For example, you see Germany go from 1.8 million prewar births per year to about 1.2 million for a 1/3 decline.
A decline which started prior to 1914. In the longer post-1914-timeline, the reduction of fertility due to women's emancipation, economical and social security (the latter especially in Germany) and an earlier consumer-culture will bring about a ceiling on populations in Europe.
You also have the baby shortage in the war as men at the front are not having sex with their wife. You can still see these echos in Russia population pyramids.
In the German pyramid as well. However, outside of a primitive society, wartime baby shortage means to a great deal a postponement of births, especially after WW2 with the infamous baby-boom in most Western societies.
I also should be clear. I see 300 million more Europeans outside of Europe.
I haven't done that before because, though I am convinced that I were closer to reality, I found your calculation possible, but now I am close to shouting "ASB". You assume levels of migration out of Europe which are unprecedented.
Also, there is still the issue of a disbalance between those areas slated to provide additional Europeans (mainly the Russian Empire, then Austria-Hungary [a careful calculation assuming the 1910-2010 growth of Switzerland by 113% showed a potential of 110millions Kakanians instead of the ca. 66 million people living on the area of the former monarchy in OTL 2012] and Germany).
 
I know there were some questions regarding population growth in this thread.
A while back, using my background in studying the history of demographics I decided to estimate the growth of countries population without the World Wars.

I looked at countries that stayed neutral or had few casualties throughout the wars: Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland. For Spain I took into account the deaths during the civil war. Also, I only counted ethnic Swedes, Portuguese etc.

During WWI the birthrates fell dramatically even in neutral countries. For countries like Denmark, Norway, Sweden the birthrates would have fallen, but still been around 3 births per woman until around 1930. Without the depression and instead more small depressions/recessions, the birthrate wouldn't have plummeted during the 1930s and 1940s and then bounced back until 1960.

With Spain and Portugal which were less developed, the birthrate was above 3 per woman until 1970 or so. So I used two sets of data to estimate growth rates for countries. For instance, with Austria-Hungary the wealthier more developed parts of the empire would have had growth rates mirroring Switzerland and Scandinavia. However, these areas would have seen more internal migration being attracted. Same goes with Rhineland in Germany. For Eastern Europe, I had the figures mirror those of Portugal and Spain to some extent.

Regarding emigration and immigration, I looked at trends of countries. In Northern Europe emigration had peaked in the 1880s and although it was still high, was falling. Also, certain regions had high rates of emigration (Galicia in Austria-Hungary), I also looked at regions with high rates of return migration (Italy, Greece and the Balkans). The effect of this is that the USA, the British dominions, South America and much of Africa will have larger European populations

Albania 3.8 million
Austria-Hungary 114.6 million
Belgium 10.9 million
Bulgaria 9.6 million
Denmark 5.3 million
Finland (included in Russian Empire) 5.7 million
France 59.9 million
German Empire 123.9 million
Greece 11.7 million
Italy 65.2 million
Montenegro 1.1 million
Netherlands 11.7 million
Norway 5 million
Portugal 11.4 million
Rumania 16.2 million
Russian Empire (including Asia) 377.8 million
Serbia 10.8 million
Spain 44.8 million
Sweden 8.2 million
Switzerland 5.2 million
United Kingdom (including Ireland) 71.3 million
 
Interesting thought. Or modern communication development takes an altogether different path, with the television as the key proponent which spawns all the other aspects of 21st century global communication.

There are all sorts of good reasons why radiotelephones might be developed into mobile phones which don't particularly involve the military, or indeed anything except the desire of phone companies to make money.

In Germany's case, butterflies might on the contrary lead in the short run to less university students, as the Weimar governments made it a central policy to widely expands access to universities.

It's pretty indisputable that World War I hurt the progress of atomic and nuclear physics, since those were rather theoretical areas without much practical application at that point, and many people who might otherwise have been working on those issues were either killed or indisposed at that time doing more useful things.

I'm not sure how much the Weimar policies would affect intake of physics graduate students, who are pretty much all that matters for this sort of thing (and physics faculty, of course). Undergraduates don't make many important discoveries, and didn't even in the early 20th century.

But, if you use a way which is more effective and less costly and also starts after "the physics was understood", you do not accelerate, but decellerate the process, IMHO. Of course, once the groundwork is laid, the whole process is cheap for a developed nation. If Germany were hell-bent in OTL 2012 to get its own nukes, it would probably be a matter of months instead of years. But being the first is always the most difficult. Only with luck, or very thorough and well-though out theoretical planning (which takes time again), you can prevent from running into one or two dead-end-streets.
Counter-example: development of nuclear fusion. Goes nowhere despite peacetime.

Fusion to fission is apples to phoenixes. They're not even in the same universe of difficulty. A better comparison might be the atomic to the hydrogen bomb, which did have several dead-end streets and did proceed during a more or less peacetime. It took only a little longer, about 8 years, despite the rather low priority assigned because of the US bomb monopoly, since the theoretical basis was rather better developed. I suspect that the "better science" and "lower priority" effects will more or less cancel each other in most plausible scenarios, so that the bomb is obtained about the same time as OTL. The biggest difference is that multiple powers are likely to develop it nearly simultaneously, or at any rate more likely than IOTL (where of course the US had a monopoly for four years), so any monopoly may be quite short-lived.

And if you argue, that researching a bomb is easier once the whole science behind it is understood in theory... then my argument runs that once the full effect of radiation etc. is understood, the idea to have a superbomb to blow up your immediate neighbours becomes a lot less alluring - unless a war-situation forces you to desperate measures.

The full effect of radiation cannot be observed without the bomb. Period. A huge portion of our epidemiological studies derive from the Hiroshima and Nagasaki survivors, as well as others who were exposed to radiation because of the bomb (whether in production accidents, testing, etc.) There is simply no theoretical basis for working out the effects of the bomb beforehand, because it involves a lot of very complicated biological mechanisms that are not all that well understood even in real life today. The physical theoretical basis for the atomic bomb will be worked out long, long before anyone will have any grasp of the biological effects.

Also, why would the effect of radiation be regarded as a particular problem? Unless you use a lot of bombs, mostly designed in such a way as to be as messy as possible (large pure fission devices, fallout jackets, depleted uranium third stages, etc.), not all that much radiation is generated, in the greater scheme of things, and if the tradeoff is poisoning a bit of the enemy's land (and in Europe running a little risk of dirtying your own for a little while)

EDIT: To finish that last thought (I was interrupted in the middle of writing): I don't see why any General Staff would consider that enough of a tradeoff to make the weapon not worth developing. For an example of a relatively similar situation, consider Pakistan and India...
 
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Why the heck is a France without both world wars and a depression _less_ populous than OTL?

Bruce

I only took into account ethnic French people and the foreigners already resident as of 1914. You have to remember that France has millions of non-French that have been admitted since 1910. Also, the decolonization of North Africa added nearly 2 million people to the country. These estimates are based on the status quo remaining.

France today has 12 million people that are either immigrants or descendants of immigrants. Finally, Alsace-Lorraine currently has around 2.8 million inhabitants.
 

NothingNow

Banned
Major disagree here. 'Classical' architecture was already going out of fashion. There's absolutely no reason why we wouldn't see the rise of both the 'art deco' and 'modernism', indeed the likes of van der Rohe and Lloyd Wright were already making an impact.

Yeah, and as a whole, you've already got Art Noveau as a transition to modern styles from Neoclassical forms (Indeed, it's the direct ancestor to both Art Deco and Modernism,) and would stay relevant for at least a decade more ITTL before transitioning to out and out modernism, (which might not develop as sparse a form as developed IOTL.)

*Art-deco and *Modernist consumer goods are guaranteed at some point, since they're less complicated, and thus cheaper to produce than classicist or Art-Noveau styled-goods.
 
I only took into account ethnic French people and the foreigners already resident as of 1914. You have to remember that France has millions of non-French that have been admitted since 1910. Also, the decolonization of North Africa added nearly 2 million people to the country. These estimates are based on the status quo remaining.

France today has 12 million people that are either immigrants or descendants of immigrants. Finally, Alsace-Lorraine currently has around 2.8 million inhabitants.

Ah! I forgot Alsace-Lorraine. But I don't think status quo is realistic; with continued slow population growth, you'd probably get immigrants; probably less from Africa, but more from Eastern Europe or perhaps Latin America, to make up for labor shortages. Those OTL immigrants aren't welfare trash sucking off the government tit: most of them have jobs. IIRC, there was significant immigration to France from other parts of Europe _before_ WWI: sure, France was no US or Canada, but it was generally OK with white Catholics.

Bruce
 
Ah! I forgot Alsace-Lorraine. But I don't think status quo is realistic; with continued slow population growth, you'd probably get immigrants; probably less from Africa, but more from Eastern Europe or perhaps Latin America, to make up for labor shortages. Those OTL immigrants aren't welfare trash sucking off the government tit: most of them have jobs. IIRC, there was significant immigration to France from other parts of Europe _before_ WWI: sure, France was no US or Canada, but it was generally OK with white Catholics.

Bruce

France was receiving immigrants, mostly from Italy and Poland before WWI. However, they were overwhelmingly male. In the days before immigration controls, male immigrants from Northern Italy would go to France and work as seasonal workers or as industrial workers and return home. The vast majority did, as migrating to France was simply an extension of the internal migration in Italy that had been occurring since the 18th century.

Also, France experienced a baby boom after WWII which I discounted, meaning that the birthrate probably stays relatively flat. I also took into account the migration from Corsica and to a lesser extent Provence to North Africa. Considering France has had chronic unemployment since the mid-1970s, perhaps having 6 million fewer people wouldn't be such a bad thing.

Finally as I stated all of my projections were based on immigration remaining static. Whilst, I was able to try to base emigration based on earlier trends. If you'll notice, the Netherlands also has fewer people. This is due to emigration to America being on an upswing prior to the war. Also, today around 20% of the population is of foreign origin.
 
There would not even be a Nazi party. As the Edwardian world, the old Anti-semite splinter parties of the Kaiserreich just keep puttering on, but fail to get a massive electorate. The whole politisation and radicalisation of the Weimar Republic falls flat. No Treaty of Versailles. No war guilt clause. No reparations. No occupation of the Rhine resp. the Ruhr. No hyperinflation. No war bonds. No bourgeoisie unsure which kind of regime they actually want. No revolution, no communist uprisings.
No Adolf Hitler as a soldier. No Adolf Hitler in politics. No Göring as a war hero.
All points out to what you say. I just don't want to completely discount a possible formation of a German Nazi-like party, thinking that while it would not be an autonomous development, it still might be a contagion. I think that Italy still might develop a strong fascist current, due to internal dynamics. Not as strong as IOTL, because there would be no Soviet Russia to produce a Red Scare, but it could be politically relevant. Spain is another candidate to develop a similar system (as it happened IOTL with Primo de Rivera's dictatorship, almost entirely due to internal causes, but taking inspiration in Mussolini's).


Question is: how long would the pre-1914 alliances continue to exist? They would lack the ideological cement which made the 1949-89 bipolar world last so long.
My guess is that the next generation of CP-political leaders would de-escalate greatly. Franz Ferdinand was known for his aversion of general war and even of a greater war against Serbia "which serves no serious purpose", Karl would be even meeker.

Probably the alliances would be more flexible, as they were before WWI. But there would still be large national sympathies: Britain and France due to friendly rivalry, Germany and Austro-Hungary due to the germanic element. Also there's common interests: France and Britain have basically split the world between themselves, shutting the central powers out of colonial expansion.
So while the game of alliances will be flexible, i can very easily see it will have at least two strong poles, Britain and Germany. France can side with Britain or go on its own, same as the US. Russia can side with either side or also stand on its own.

We certainly have a multipolar world here... but i think in the scientific world, it simplifies to a bipolarity. Even if we have shenanigans between the French and the British about their colonial expansion, their scientific institutions will still have a tradition of working together. Even if the Austro Hungarian Empire sets high tariffs to the German products due to an agreement with Britain, Austrian physicists will still submit their papers first to Annalen der physik.

Is it true that Russian elite would speak mostly French, neglecting their own language? If this is true, France and Russia might create a 3rd scientific pole.
 
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