Super Bismarck

[RCTFI]

IOTL, the battleship Bismarck was a German battleship in World War Two that, while seemingly extremely impressive, failed to perform very well in actual combat - indeed, it was sunk after destroying only one lighter British ship. The idea of this excercise is to envision a much more effective, successful, battleship Bismarck, and its impact on the war. Obviously, a luckier Bismarck would not be enough to change the course of the war, but it would be interesting to see what effects it could have. (And, when I say luckier, I do mean luckier - perhaps a bit unrealistically so, to be honest...)

At any rate, here comes the TL:

(Note, things in red happen as per OTL.)

1941:

May 19th: Battleship Bismarck sets sail from Gotenhafen accompanied by the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen.

May 22nd: Bismarck spotted in a Norwegian fjord by RAF recon aircraft - a subsequent bombing raid proves useless, as the Bismarck had already relocated - begining its journey into the Atlantic...

(ITTL, the Bismarck refuels in Norway, however...)

May 23rd: Heavy cruisers HMS Suffolk and HMS Norfolk detect the Bismarck with radar. Fire is exchanged... ITTL, the shell from the Bismarck's guns that struck the Norfolk's bridge explodes, inflicting significant damage. (OTLy, it failed to explode.) The Norfolk is crippled, and as the heavily out-gunned Suffolk flees, the Norfolk is destroyed by German shells. The Prinz Eugen was forced to move ahead of the Bismarck in formation after this engagement - the Bismarck's radar had malfunctioned, and so for the sake of frontal radar coverage, the Prinz Eugen needed to take the lead.

May 24th: As the German force leaves the Denmark Strait, a Royal Navy force comprised of the battlecruiser HMS Hood and the battleship HMS Prince of Wales. The British ships fire at the Prinz Eugen, mistakenly believing it to be the Bismarck due to its position in the convoy and the similarity of the silhouets of the two German ships. The Prince of Wales quickly corrects, but the Hood takes a moment longer. At any rate, the first British salvoes fall short, causing no serious damage. The Hood begins attempting to close the range two minutes into the engagement, at which point the Germans open fire. The Hood is hit several times by both the Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen. As the Bismarck and the Prince of Wales exchange fire, the Hood explodes - its magazines penetrated by a 38cm shell from the Bismarck. The Prince of Wales is forced to turn towards the German fleet to avoid the wreakage of the Hood, and suffers numerous hits, leaving all but one of its main guns out of action. Eventually, the Prince of Wales turns away, and attempts to disengage. It is at that time that the battleship Bismarck scores another lucky hit with its 38cm guns, as an additional pair of shells strike the Prince of Wales amidship, resulting in the sinking of the British battleship.

At this point, the Bismarck had suffered some damage from the fighting - as a result, the decision is made to make for St. Nazaire in France. The Prinz Eugen is to leave the Bismarck, and continue on its original commerce raiding mission.

In the evening, a squadron of British Swordfish torpedo bombers attack the Bismarck, causing minor damage but worsening internal damage from the earlier engagement, leading to flooding of the forward boiler room, which is abandoned. The Bismarck can now make top speeds of only 16 knots.

May 25th: The Bismarck continues towards St. Nazaire.

May 26th: RAF recon aircraft spot the Bismarck. That night, Swordfish once more attack the Bismarck. As OTLy, they initially accidentally attack the cruiser HMS Sheffield. Unfortunately, unlike in OTL, ITTL the British torpedoes prove effective - the Sheffield suffers significant damage and is forced to give up the chase.

The Swordfish then make an attack run on the Bismarck. The Bismarck suffers one critical hit to the rudders, ruining the ship's manuverability and further slowing it. The British lose five Swordfish bombers in this attack. (OTLy, five were damaged, only one of those irreperably.) With his ship almost unable to manuver, the Bismarck reports that its situation is more or less hopeless, and that it will fight until its last shell is spent.

During the night, Bismarck is subjected to incessent torpedo attacks by the British destroyers Cossack, Maori, Sikh, and Zulu, as well as the Polish destroyer Piorun. The Bismarck returns fire, hitting both the Zulu and the Cossack. The Zulu is sunk. (OTLy, the shells that hit the Zulu failed to explode, while those that hit the Cossack were aimed just a little too high - here German gunnery was a touch luckier, and the shells actually exploded.)

At this point, the German U-Boat U-556 returns from a combat patrol with no torpedoes. Unable to engage the British, the U-556 shadows the British forces, reporting their positions.

May 27th: In the early morning, the Royal Navy Battleships HMS King George V and HMS Rodney engage the Bismarck. Fire is exchanged, with the Bismarck's crew doing their best. However, the Bismarck was heavily damaged already, and its low speed made it something of a sitting duck. The heavy cruiser HMS Dorsetshire arrives shortly after the fighting has begun, and adds its firepower to the British pounding of the Bismarck. (OTLy, the HMS Norfolk was also present, however ITTLy it had already been sunk.) British gunfire is a touch less deadly than OTLy that day - the lucky salvo that OTLy destroyed the Bismarck's forward control post and killed most of its senior officers does not occur. However, the Bismarck is still heavily outgunned. The fighting continues longer than OTLy, with the Bismarck's guns inflicting light damage on both the King George V and the Rodney. The Bismarck finally sinks beneath the waves at 11:05 PM.

Only 97 crewmen from the Bismarck are recovered by the British units - at that point they withdraw due to a U-Boat warning.

The next day, an additional six survivors are recovered by German forces.


Well, that's about it... any ideas as to the effect this will have on the course of the war? (And yes, it was a bit unrealistically succesful, but I would argue not ASB-ishly so.)

 

[Johnrankins]

I agree strongly on one thing, the Bismark is a highly over-rated ship. It may well be the most over-rated ship in history. Like you said it sunk only one British ship; the HMS Hood.

 

[RCTFI]

I agree strongly on one thing, the Bismark is a highly over-rated ship. It may well be the most over-rated ship in history. Like you said it sunk only one British ship; the HMS Hood.

Yes, well, I sort of wanted its performance to live up to its reputation... and, let's face it, when it had continual trouble with its shells not exploding when they hit, that's something that just seems so darned unfair...

(The fact that I've done all of the writting for this TL, and conceived of it, after midnight when I only got about five hours of sleep last night could have something to do with my incoherence and choice to use this particular POD...)

 

[merlin]

It seems to me you missed an additional POD!
Having sunk a Cruiser, a Battle-cruiser and a Battleship, in this scenairo - Raeder would be 'jumping-up-and-down with excitement of the success of the mission. So why go to the a vulnerable French Port, better alternate is to return to the home port - check and repair the damage - ready for the next time.
And the next time could include not the Prinz Eugen (if it hadn't been sunk) but the Tirpitz!!
Question was though if returning to Germany could the Bismark avoid the KGV?

 

[ranoncles]

It seems to me you missed an additional POD!
Having sunk a Cruiser, a Battle-cruiser and a Battleship, in this scenairo - Raeder would be 'jumping-up-and-down with excitement of the success of the mission. So why go to the a vulnerable French Port, better alternate is to return to the home port - check and repair the damage - ready for the next time.
And the next time could include not the Prinz Eugen (if it hadn't been sunk) but the Tirpitz!!
Question was though if returning to Germany could the Bismark avoid the KGV?

If Raeder appealed to Goring for Luftwaffe support in the form of a protective umbrella and air attacks on threatening British surface units, the Bismarck might well have returned safely.

The prestige of the Kriegsmarine would have been sky-high. In empire building Germany, Goring would not have missed the opportunity to siphon off some of the prestige for his own Luftwaffe.

 

[Xenos]

A super-battleship is never going to be a serious threat to the allied war effort. Just look at the Japanese battleship HIJMS Yamato, she had nine 18'' guns, carried seven aircraft and weighed over 68,000 tons. Yet she hardly even made a dent in the US Pacific fleet. Her greatest contribution to the Japanese naval campaign was simply her existence. As long as she remained afloat, the Americans had to exhaust a hugely disproportionate amount of their naval resources to hunt down and destroy this one ship.
The same was true of KMS Bismark and her sister ship KMS Tirpitz. Neither of these ships caused enough damage to British shipping to justify their expense. Their value was mostly symbolic. KMS Tirpitz spent most of the war in a Norweigen fjord, where she tied up an enormous amount of British resources. It took more than thirty air raids by the RAF before she was destroyed.
So, an up-armoured and up gunned version of the Bismark would certainly have been useful to the Germans. She still wouldn't pose any real threat to the Royal Navy but she would be an excellent means of diverting a massively disproportionate amount of the RN and RAF's already overstretched resources away from more practical operations. She may even have sunk a couple more of Britain's capital ships and damaged British morale further. But that would be about the limit of her worth.

 

[RCTFI]

It seems to me you missed an additional POD!
Having sunk a Cruiser, a Battle-cruiser and a Battleship, in this scenairo - Raeder would be 'jumping-up-and-down with excitement of the success of the mission. So why go to the a vulnerable French Port, better alternate is to return to the home port - check and repair the damage - ready for the next time.
And the next time could include not the Prinz Eugen (if it hadn't been sunk) but the Tirpitz!!
Question was though if returning to Germany could the Bismark avoid the KGV?

The problem was, her rudder had been destroyed in the RAF attack. I could have PODed that away, but decided against it because, well, it seemed like that would be going a bit too far in the Bismarck's favor. If it hadn't been for that hit, the Bismarck would probably have survived OTLy.

If Raeder appealed to Goring for Luftwaffe support in the form of a protective umbrella and air attacks on threatening British surface units, the Bismarck might well have returned safely.

The prestige of the Kriegsmarine would have been sky-high. In empire building Germany, Goring would not have missed the opportunity to siphon off some of the prestige for his own Luftwaffe.

Well, the rudder had been destroyed as per OTL, so that all that the Bismarck could do was go around in circles... even if the Luftwaffe showed up, it wasn't likely that the Bismarck would be able to repair itself and limp back to port.

The real point of this POD was simply - what effect would this Bismarck's far superior to OTL performance have on the German war effort? Would they try sallying with its sister ship, instead of leaving her to sit in the Norwegian fjord?

A super-battleship is never going to be a serious threat to the allied war effort. Just look at the Japanese battleship HIJMS Yamato, she had nine 18'' guns, carried seven aircraft and weighed over 68,000 tons. Yet she hardly even made a dent in the US Pacific fleet. Her greatest contribution to the Japanese naval campaign was simply her existence. As long as she remained afloat, the Americans had to exhaust a hugely disproportionate amount of their naval resources to hunt down and destroy this one ship.
The same was true of KMS Bismark and her sister ship KMS Tirpitz. Neither of these ships caused enough damage to British shipping to justify their expense. Their value was mostly symbolic. KMS Tirpitz spent most of the war in a Norweigen fjord, where she tied up an enormous amount of British resources. It took more than thirty air raids by the RAF before she was destroyed.
So, an up-armoured and up gunned version of the Bismark would certainly have been useful to the Germans. She still wouldn't pose any real threat to the Royal Navy but she would be an excellent means of diverting a massively disproportionate amount of the RN and RAF's already overstretched resources away from more practical operations. She may even have sunk a couple more of Britain's capital ships and damaged British morale further. But that would be about the limit of her worth.

Totally agreed... although I'd also say that the Tirpitz was ill used - just sitting around in the fjord like that. If you have a weapon, and you're fighting a war, you use it - even if it isn't a very good weapon.

I think the result of this POD might be that the Tirpitz actually does get used, which would be sort of cool. Heck, if the Tirpitz actually does make a good performance, then it might make the Germans go so far as to actually expand the Kriegsmarine surface fleet, which would be cool in and of itself.

 

[Xenos]

I think a more interesting variation on this would be for Hitler to be bold enough to dismiss the battleship as useless and embrace the aircraft carrier instead. Luckily for Britain, Hitler never saw the merit of aircraft carriers. He, like many strategists at the time, thought of carriers as specialised ships rather than capital ships. Tirpitz and Bismark were superb battleships in every way. But by WW2 the battleship had had it's day. Even if the Kriegsmarine had twice as many battleships, it would not have had any profound effect on the war at sea.

 

[zoomar]

I think a more interesting variation on this would be for Hitler to be bold enough to dismiss the battleship as useless and embrace the aircraft carrier instead. Luckily for Britain, Hitler never saw the merit of aircraft carriers. He, like many strategists at the time, thought of carriers as specialised ships rather than capital ships.

For Germany to have an effective carrier force and naval aviation arm, you would almost need a PoD which removes the Versailles treaty from the equation. Germany was forbidden to develop and produce military aircraft, which would include naval types. I do not know if the development of aircraft carriers was explicitly banned by Versailles, but I suspect so. Lacking any experience in the development of carrier aviation, any German developments along these lines once Hitler revoked the Treaty would have had to be conservative - much more so than the UK, USA, and Japan. The "Graf Zeppelin" reflects this philospohy. As a fleet carrier it would have been very inferior to its Japanese and allied counterparts. The only country Germany could have turned to for assistance was Japan, but Japanese building capability was very limited. It is hard to imagine Japan agreeing to build Germany a couple of Hiryus and help train aircrews when they could barely meet the needs of the Imperial Navy.

 

[RCTFI]

What do you guys think - should I bother to continue this TL to have the Tirpitz sally forth to mess with the RN?

Oh, and there are two songs about the Bismarck that I found:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KecIdlEAKhU

And:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WxMpt2KwGw&feature=related

 

[David S Poepoe]

For Germany to have an effective carrier force and naval aviation arm, you would almost need a PoD which removes the Versailles treaty from the equation. Germany was forbidden to develop and produce military aircraft, which would include naval types. I do not know if the development of aircraft carriers was explicitly banned by Versailles, but I suspect so. Lacking any experience in the development of carrier aviation, any German developments along these lines once Hitler revoked the Treaty would have had to be conservative - much more so than the UK, USA, and Japan. The "Graf Zeppelin" reflects this philospohy. As a fleet carrier it would have been very inferior to its Japanese and allied counterparts. The only country Germany could have turned to for assistance was Japan, but Japanese building capability was very limited. It is hard to imagine Japan agreeing to build Germany a couple of Hiryus and help train aircrews when they could barely meet the needs of the Imperial Navy.

The POD for an aircraft carrier doesn't have to go that far back. However, it is only with hindsight that we can boast how great carriers are since from the 1920s-30s there pretty much is no indication in mainstream thought. The Germans had minor carrier experience during the Great War. When the rebuilding of the Reichsmarine occurs why would one build what is considered an auxiliary ship (the carrier) when one could build an armoured cruiser?

I think it is also important to point out the terrible state of German naval aviation given that Goering had control over everything that flew. The interdepartmental rivalry was intense.

 

[CalBear]

Carriers would have been pretty much useless for the Germans. They require so much support that the Reich would have been forced to build far more surface ships than it did IOTL, enough that none of them would ever have been able to leave port.

Even if they did, what possible use would they be? It wasn't until 1940 or so that the carrier really came into it's own as an offensive system; before then it was considered a purely scouting platform that might be able to get a couple of lucky hits from torpedo planes. The only countries that had a slightly wider vision were Japan and the U.S. (mostly because they had to deal with the wide expanses of the Pacific), both of whom put some real effort into carrier specific aircraft.

Any surface combatant (save some destroyers) was a waste of effort for the Germans. They would ALWAYS be outnumbered, outgunned, and on the defensive, doomed before leaving port. Even the Graf Spee's commerce raiding was a failure, given the effort it required. Ten U-Boats would have been far more effective, cheaper, and would have not resulted in such a major morale boost to the British populous if/when they were brought to book as the defeat and destruction of the Graf Spee provided.

 

[merlin]

The problem was, her rudder had been destroyed in the RAF attack. I could have PODed that away, but decided against it because, well, it seemed like that would be going a bit too far in the Bismarck's favor. If it hadn't been for that hit, the Bismarck would probably have survived OTLy.

In the POD I suggested - in my 'post', it would be before the FAA attack (the RAF were far away), where with their success against the RN the Bismark heads home to Germany to repair the damage. As a result, its reputation and propaganda value increases.

I think the result of this POD might be that the Tirpitz actually does get used, which would be sort of cool. Heck, if the Tirpitz actually does make a good performance, then it might make the Germans go so far as to actually expand the Kriegsmarine surface fleet, which would be cool in and of itself.

Yes, the next foray of the Bismark more than likely to be with the Tirpitz.
The other option the Germans have is to get round to up-gunning the S & G Battleships - they'd be more effective with 15" guns rather than 11".

 

[Fenwick]

All I know is that the 3rd Reich could have made so many more submarines without the Bismarck being made.

 

[RCTFI]

The POD for an aircraft carrier doesn't have to go that far back. However, it is only with hindsight that we can boast how great carriers are since from the 1920s-30s there pretty much is no indication in mainstream thought. The Germans had minor carrier experience during the Great War. When the rebuilding of the Reichsmarine occurs why would one build what is considered an auxiliary ship (the carrier) when one could build an armoured cruiser?

I think it is also important to point out the terrible state of German naval aviation given that Goering had control over everything that flew. The interdepartmental rivalry was intense.

Very true, good points.

Carriers would have been pretty much useless for the Germans. They require so much support that the Reich would have been forced to build far more surface ships than it did IOTL, enough that none of them would ever have been able to leave port.

Even if they did, what possible use would they be? It wasn't until 1940 or so that the carrier really came into it's own as an offensive system; before then it was considered a purely scouting platform that might be able to get a couple of lucky hits from torpedo planes. The only countries that had a slightly wider vision were Japan and the U.S. (mostly because they had to deal with the wide expanses of the Pacific), both of whom put some real effort into carrier specific aircraft.

Any surface combatant (save some destroyers) was a waste of effort for the Germans. They would ALWAYS be outnumbered, outgunned, and on the defensive, doomed before leaving port. Even the Graf Spee's commerce raiding was a failure, given the effort it required. Ten U-Boats would have been far more effective, cheaper, and would have not resulted in such a major morale boost to the British populous if/when they were brought to book as the defeat and destruction of the Graf Spee provided.

Again, very true, in my opinion the best use of German naval resources would be in the form of either U-Boats, or E-Boats (torpedo boats) with perhaps some destroyers and light cruisers thrown in. Of course, spending more on land-based aircraft would be an even better use of resources than any of that...

Yes, the next foray of the Bismark more than likely to be with the Tirpitz.
The other option the Germans have is to get round to up-gunning the S & G Battleships - they'd be more effective with 15" guns rather than 11".

Yes, a force comprised of up-gunned versions of the Bismarck and the Tirpitz would be quite cool - even if the two battleships were not exactly the best investment for the Germans to make.

All I know is that the 3rd Reich could have made so many more submarines without the Bismarck being made.

Yes, it was pretty much a waste of resources to build those battleships... in fact, much of the Kriegsmarine surface fleet was a waste, when you think of it. Aside from some fighting in the Baltic, there wasn't much that it was used for!

 

[Xenos]

For Germany to have an effective carrier force and naval aviation arm, you would almost need a PoD which removes the Versailles treaty from the equation. Germany was forbidden to develop and produce military aircraft, which would include naval types. I do not know if the development of aircraft carriers was explicitly banned by Versailles, but I suspect so. Lacking any experience in the development of carrier aviation, any German developments along these lines once Hitler revoked the Treaty would have had to be conservative - much more so than the UK, USA, and Japan. The "Graf Zeppelin" reflects this philospohy. As a fleet carrier it would have been very inferior to its Japanese and allied counterparts. The only country Germany could have turned to for assistance was Japan, but Japanese building capability was very limited. It is hard to imagine Japan agreeing to build Germany a couple of Hiryus and help train aircrews when they could barely meet the needs of the Imperial Navy.

Well, Hitler pretty much threw Versailles out the window by the later stages of rearmament so why not go all the way? Also, carriers do not have to be built from scratch. HMS Couragous, HMS Glorious, and HMS Furious were originally WW1 battlecruisers before they were converted into carriers. Germany could easily have converted many of her obsolete battleships and battlecruisers into carriers.
I agree that they would be of an inferior quality to RN, USN, or IJN carriers but they would also have been far more dangerous to the RN than Bismark or Tirpitz.
Also, I think they would have been very useful in the North Africa and Mediterranean campaigns as a means of protecting supply lines across the Med. Gen. Montomery and Gen. Alexander owe much of their successes in North Africa to Admiral Cunningham's brilliant use of carriers in the Med, which put the Italian fleet out of action and allowed the Royal Navy to keep the 8th Army well supplied compared to Rommel's Afrika Corps which often ran short of diesel and tyres and other essentials.

 

[David S Poepoe]

Germany could easily have converted many of her obsolete battleships and battlecruisers into carriers.
I agree that they would be of an inferior quality to RN, USN, or IJN carriers but they would also have been far more dangerous to the RN than Bismark or Tirpitz.

What obsolete battlecruisers are you talking about? It would be a waste of time and material to convert a predreadnought into a aircraft carrier.

 

[CalBear]

Well, Hitler pretty much threw Versailles out the window by the later stages of rearmament so why not go all the way? Also, carriers do not have to be built from scratch. HMS Couragous, HMS Glorious, and HMS Furious were originally WW1 battlecruisers before they were converted into carriers. Germany could easily have converted many of her obsolete battleships and battlecruisers into carriers.
I agree that they would be of an inferior quality to RN, USN, or IJN carriers but they would also have been far more dangerous to the RN than Bismark or Tirpitz.
Also, I think they would have been very useful in the North Africa and Mediterranean campaigns as a means of protecting supply lines across the Med. Gen. Montomery and Gen. Alexander owe much of their successes in North Africa to Admiral Cunningham's brilliant use of carriers in the Med, which put the Italian fleet out of action and allowed the Royal Navy to keep the 8th Army well supplied compared to Rommel's Afrika Corps which often ran short of diesel and tyres and other essentials.

What obsolete battle cruisers? The ones at the bottom of Scapa Flow? German was only allowed six capital ship of 10,000 tons or less.

As far as the Med, all the carriers in the world wouldn't have helped the North Africa Campaign (unless you used them as transports). The Reich simply didn't have the lift necessary to keep the Afrika Corps supplied, and the port facilities to handle the volume if they had sufficient bottoms.