Suggestions for a Brazilian Empire POD?

Hey folks, I've been doing some brief looking into Brazilian history, and had the thought of trying to do a Brazilian Empire Timeline. However, I am at current unsure of what would be a good POD.

I had a thought of a late POD involving Pedro II defeating the coup that removed him from power, or that he changes his mind regarding the continuation of the monarchy within Brazil. I have to do some more research into both the coup and Pedro II before I can decide on those.

However, I would love any suggestions from anybody who is knowledgable in Brazilian history Pre-1900.
 
The problem with the coup against Pedro II it was that he was unpopular with nearly everyone

This.

Wikipedia page for Pedro II of Brazil said:
Although there was no desire for a change in the form of government among most Brazilians, the Emperor was overthrown in a sudden coup d'état that had almost no support outside a clique of military leaders who desired a form of republic headed by a dictator. Pedro II had become weary of emperorship and despaired over the monarchy's future prospects, despite its overwhelming popular support. He allowed no prevention of his ouster and did not support any attempt to restore the monarchy afterwards. He spent the last two years of his life in exile in Europe, living alone on very little money.

The reign of Pedro II thus came to an unusual end—he was overthrown while highly regarded by the people and at the pinnacle of his popularity, and some of his accomplishments were soon brought to naught as Brazil slipped into a long period of weak governments, dictatorships, and constitutional and economic crises. The same men who had exiled him soon began to see in him a model for the Brazilian republic. A few decades after his death, his reputation was restored and his remains were returned to Brazil as those of a national hero. This reputation has lasted to the present day. Historians have regarded the Emperor in an extremely positive light, and he is usually ranked as the greatest Brazilian.


Of course, I had considered the possibility of two types of POD. One has Pedro II dying during his reign, and allowing his daughter, Dona Isabel, Princess Imperial of Brazil, to become the new monarch.

Not sure how well that one would work. Pedro II didn't even think she would be a suitable heir. It would require him to rethink his own opinion on gender, as well as prepare her for the position AND convince the ruling circles in Brazil to accept her as Empress.

Another POD I was thinking of involved one of his son's living, rather than dying. Pedro II saw the death of his sons to be a harbinger, foretelling the end of the monarchy in Brazil. I can go with either one, and the nice thing(potentially) about this is that I won't be as restricted as to what sort of person either son could have become.

It has the downside that I would have to take my time creating a realistic personality for said future Emperor.
 
Another POD I was thinking of involved one of his son's living, rather than dying.

This probably is your best bet. The late 1880's certainly is too late to save the Empire, the early 1880's probably is too late as well. I'd say you'd have to change things immediately after the Triple Alliance War to save it, and even then you'd have to do something about D.Pedro II increasing apathy concerning government, as well as the fact too many important people seem to have disliked Princess Isabel, and positively loathed her husband.

EDIT: BTW, I'd be somewhat wary of using Wikipedia pages on the Brazilian Imperial Family - D.Pedro II's page seems to be OK, but I get a whitewashing vibe from Princess Isabel's page, which is to me even greater in the Count D'Eu(her husband)'s page
 
This probably is your best bet. The late 1880's certainly is too late to save the Empire, the early 1880's probably is too late as well. I'd say you'd have to change things immediately after the Triple Alliance War to save it, and even then you'd have to do something about D.Pedro II increasing apathy concerning government, as well as the fact too many important people seem to have disliked Princess Isabel, and positively loathed her husband.

Part of his apathy came, I believe, from the loss of his two sons. With no legal heir (that he felt could actually be suitable), he felt the monarchy was doomed, and rather than focusing on the continuation of the monarchy, focused himself on improving his country.

I'll have to do some digging, as I'll need to know how old the prince had to be before they could become king/emperor.

EDIT: BTW, I'd be somewhat wary of using Wikipedia pages on the Brazilian Imperial Family - D.Pedro II's page seems to be OK, but I get a whitewashing vibe from Princess Isabel's page, which is to me even greater in the Count D'Eu(her husband)'s page

Yeah, when I saw her page, I was kinda upset. Half of it is empty, and theirs not much else.

In Pedro II's case, I intend to try and find some other sources on him before I went ahead and did anything.

Anywho, lets see...Prince Imperial Alfonso is born in 1845...he turns 20 in 65,...

Actually, keeping his son or both alive actually alters things a fair bit. Pedro will still have faith for the survival of the monarchy in brazil...

*sigh* this is going to involve lost of research. But it'll be fun ^_^
 
I'd say you'd have to change things immediately after the Triple Alliance War to save it, and even then you'd have to do something about D.Pedro II increasing apathy concerning government, as well as the fact too many important people seem to have disliked Princess Isabel, and positively loathed her husband.

I'd say that in order to save the Empire you need to get rid of the Triple Alliance War entirely. The political changes that the conflict unleashed would probably have doomed the monarchy, if not in the 1880's probably in the 1890's. With a less political powerful Army, less economical troubles and a male Braganza heir to Pedro II maybe the monarchy could be kept.
 
I'd say that in order to save the Empire you need to get rid of the Triple Alliance War entirely. The political changes that the conflict unleashed would probably have doomed the monarchy, if not in the 1880's probably in the 1890's. With a less political powerful Army, less economical troubles and a male Braganza heir to Pedro II maybe the monarchy could be kept.

I think the monarchy could be saved even with the Triple Alliance War - it would be hard, but could be done, IMO. A shorter Triple Alliance War(or no war at all) would be better, of course.

EDIT: Just had a thought: Marechal Floriano Peixoto, Saviour of the Empire? He chose to let the Empire hang in November 15, 1889, but what if, for some reason, he decided to be the éminence grise of the Empire? It would a tall order, even for him(and the house of cards would probably fall down after he died), but if there's someone who could do it, it was him.
 
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D.Pedro II's regency was supposed to last until 1843, when he would be 18. His crowning at 15 was the result of a palace coup.

Ah, thank you. Thats very helpful...

My current idea revolving around the scenario of Prince Imperial Alfonso living involves Pedro II dying and his son succeding him. With the information you've given me, I'm going to place his potential death between 1862 and 1865.

Of course, since the actual POD is Alfonso living, I am going to have to take a careful look at each event afterwards to see what could potentially be changed. If Pedro II's faith in the monarchy isn't ruined, he might act somewhat differently.

So...the POD is currently on June 11, 1847. I was thinking that Alfonso could still have the convulsions, but live. Maybe have his survival chance be "unknown" to the royal doctors, and his parents by his bedside each day. He is bedridden and unresponsive for say, three or four days, with his condition not improving. On the fourth (or fifth) day though, Alfonso miracously recovers. Pedro II thinks of it as an "a divine sign from god" and it strenthens his faith in the monarchy.

Haven't decided if the other son, Prince Imperial Pedro (was he considered to be Pedro III or was it just Pedro?) would live or not.

EDIT: Marechal Floriano Peixoto could do it, but from what I can gather he was a believer in the Republic, as it was his work that led to consolidating the young Republic.

Although, I could be wrong. Need more digging.
 
EDIT: Just had a thought: Marechal Floriano Peixoto, Saviour of the Empire? He chose to let the Empire hang in November 15, 1889, but what if, for some reason, he decided to be the éminence grise of the Empire? It would a tall order, even for him(and the house of cards would probably fall down after he died), but if there's someone who could do it, it was him.

Hmm, that would be really an intriguing possibility. Floriano after all wasn't among the Republican conspirators, he even didn't want to join them. He only refused to attack rebells when they started the coup, more probably due to his feelings of brotherhood to fellow Army officers than any Republican sympathy he could have. He only joined the Republicans after the coup was done, and from there started his unlikely and meteoric career.
 
Hmm, that would be really an intriguing possibility. Floriano after all wasn't among the Republican conspirators, he even didn't want to join them. He only refused to attack rebells when they started the coup, more probably due to his feelings of brotherhood to fellow Army officers than any Republican sympathy he could have. He only joined the Republicans after the coup was done, and from there started his unlikely and meteoric career.

Okay, so I have two POD's. One involves Alfonso living to become the eventual Emperor, and the other involves Floriano restoring the Empire, if I am understanding things correctly.

Which would be better, and also, regarding the latter scenario, when would be the best date for him to begin his restoration of the Empire?
 
My current idea revolving around the scenario of Prince Imperial Alfonso living involves Pedro II dying and his son succeding him. With the information you've given me, I'm going to place his potential death between 1862 and 1865.

If I might suggest, kill Afonso and let the Emperor's second son, Pedro Afonso, to survive. It would kepp that old curse that "all first borns of the Braganzas will die before inheriting the throne". ;)

It actually happened IOTL, from John IV of Portugal to Pedro II of Brazil, no monarch of the House of Braganza was succeed by his firstborn male heir.
 
If I might suggest, kill Afonso and let the Emperor's second son, Pedro Afonso, to survive. It would kepp that old curse that "all first borns of the Braganzas will die before inheriting the throne". ;)

It actually happened IOTL, from John IV of Portugal to Pedro II of Brazil, no monarch of the House of Braganza was succeed by his firstborn male heir.

XXth times the charm ;) But yeah, I could do that. Heck, it might actually reinforce Pedro's faith in the Monarchy.

Of course, I could still have Afonso (been misspelling the name darn it :mad:) live, and simply have him die later, while still having Pedro Afonso living to become Emperor.

...nah, that would just be counter-productive to my "divine sign from god" thing with Afonso living. So, here's a revised version.

Prince Imperial Afonso does not experience convulsions in 1847, but does at the age of ten in 1855. This places makes Prince Imperial Pedro Afonso (age 7) as the heir to the throne of the Empire of Brazil.

How does that sound?
 
Prince Imperial Afonso does not experience convulsions in 1847, but does at the age of ten in 1855. This places makes Prince Imperial Pedro Afonso (age 7) as the heir to the throne of the Empire of Brazil.

How does that sound?

Or you could make him die later, at the front in Paraguay...
 
Or you could make him die later, at the front in Paraguay...

Thats true, I could do that. Afonso dies in the War of the Triple Alliance, which brings Pedro II into a temporary depression, while Pedro Afonso leads in his fathers stead.

Hmm...I could have Pedro Afonso be a vindictive person and seek revenge against the paraguayans for the death of his older brother...or it could make him want to end the war as fast as possible to prevent more Brazilian deaths.

It was parenthood that brought Pedro II and Teresa Cristina closer, as their marriage was a marriage of state rather than one of romance. So I could have Afonso becoming Pedro II's favorite, spoiling him to large degree, while Pedro Afonso has to work harder to get respect and acknowledged.

Could have Afonso begin to believe by the Triple Alliance War that he is invincible, while Pedro Afonso (who could have a bout with a major disease and live, but with a close call) recognize his mortality. In Afonso's case, it leads to his death. In Pedro Afonso's case, it makes him a better ruler.
 
This probably is your best bet. The late 1880's certainly is too late to save the Empire, the early 1880's probably is too late as well.
Preventing the coup would go a long way toward saving the Empire. The academy that prepared officers was
filled with imported french officers, full of republican ideas. A better selection of instructors would prevent a coup... or at least stop the army
from being instrument of one.
 
Preventing the coup would go a long way toward saving the Empire. The academy that prepared officers was
filled with imported french officers, full of republican ideas. A better selection of instructors would prevent a coup... or at least stop the army
from being instrument of one.

Agreed, kind of. Purging the Army(not only the Military Academy) of republicanists would be a sine qua non condition for stopping the events of November 15, 1889. The purge would have to be done early(hence my comment on the late 1880's being too late to save the Empire; cashiering republican officers by then would mean a mutiny). The Army is only part of the problem, though; you need to do something about the landowners who didn't support the Empire anymore, otherwise, it just means a coup will happen at a later date.
 
Preventing the coup would go a long way toward saving the Empire. The academy that prepared officers was
filled with imported french officers, full of republican ideas. A better selection of instructors would prevent a coup... or at least stop the army
from being instrument of one.

Actually during the Empire there weren't many French instructors, they were more largely used during the Old Republic. But the Brazilian instructors were generally strong readers of French Positivism texts, and it made them believe that the monarchy was a doomed and backward regime.
 
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