Sufficient 30s RN fleet

Thanks for the post edgeworthy interesting stuff (even if I have a few questions with some of it).

- I don't think you get as many new ships, even in a no treaty world the 20/30s are still full of people trying to save money (or running out in the IJN case)

- I think a 16"/etc limit might well be agreed informally as soon as people who don't agree with limits (IJN) run out of cash....

- With more capital ships I think most the CAs get cancelled why build them when a Kongo/R&R/Lex can take there place (and is free as it cant fight a new BB anyway)

- Really not sure about the LexII + they had already started to not like the original Lex's and through about CV conversions so not sure you even get a full 6 without WNT.

- Why keep tiger as solo 13.5" ship ? I would cut it or keep more of them, maybe last 2 classes of BBs ?

- ANT was effectively already obsolete but having it get forgotten slowly might be nicer to all sides and bring up less tension.

- Singapore a genuine fortress? isn't going to happen with 1930s budgets (and cant really if you need to concentrate on Europe)

- Not sure I agree with any Z plan stuff I think they just drop out of the GB/US/J race and build very fast cheap PB killers at a lower level to fight European opponents.

- the German plans are insane :eek: not sure that GB ships (in a no treaty world) matter more than just MN/RM fleets as they might accept that a GB navel war isn't winnable ? (and would GB really agree to 35% in a no treaty world ? why sign anything and why 35% not that Germany could pay for that much in a very short window 34-39)

And do we have to keep reposting in full ? makes it a bit long and hard to read ?

We are working with an unlimited budget!

And I have suggested spending some of it on upgrading the RN's infrastructure, as well as R&D, which is where I was going.
So more money spent on Singapore!

The study I did is a bit old, and very speculative, the USN might end up moving into the Fast Battleship world, which is really what the G3's were, assuming it doesn't decide to skip the idea altogether (And decide to build more larger CA's).

Any version of the Z-Plan sounds insane, but you have to consider its Author. He was inclined towards the grandiose and implausible, have you seen the later H-Class plans?

Washington was not the beginning or end of Naval treaties, the Anglo-Japanese Naval Treaty preceded it by 20 years, the dissolution of which was one of the results of the WNT, so it might continue without it.
Britain and Germany signing a bi-lateral Naval treaty, not without precedent.

This is alternate history, we can speculate anything?

And to follow on from this, to give the RN an Unlimited budget.
Britain does have onshore Oilfields, in use since the 1930's, suppose the ASB's make them larger, and developed Pre-WW1?
 
I would question if the N3s get built at all, would GB who was wanting to save cash not just build the G3s and then hope that nobody else would open the 18" genie ?

In a situation that the RN had 2 batches of G3s "Battlecruisers" they could happily sit back and agree to an unofficial 'parity' with,

My idea of a no WNT world (without unlimited budgets !)

RN 9 New/ 17 Old/ 12 Reserve 38 Total
2 A&NZ R
2 L&PR R
4 O R
3 KVG R
Erin R
4 ID's O
Tiger O
5 QE’s O
5 R’s O
2 Renown’s O
Hood N
4 G3 N
4 G4 N

USN 14 New/ 9 Old/ 6 Reserve 29 Total
2 Delaware's R
2 Florida's R
2 Wyoming's R
2 New York’s O
2 Nevada’s O
3 New Mexico’s O
2 Tennessee’s O
4 Colorado’s N
4 Lexington’s N
6 South Dakota’s N

IJN 10 New/ 8 Old/ 3 Reserve 21 Total
2 Satsuma's R
1 Settsu R
4 Kongo’s O
2 Fuso’s O
2 Ise’s O
2 Nagato’s N
2 Kaga’s N
4 Amagi’s N
2 Kii’s N

This gives a USN 14, RN 9, IJN 10 in modern ships so USN should be happy and stops wanting to pay for more (and privately so will RN) and IJN get to save face v RN and has run out of cash anyway.

RN gets to keep loads of old stuff that can hold European waters if the fleet has to go to Singapore (v KM/RM/NM `13.5" should be ok) and that makes the 14/9/10 numbers less relevant (as well as its 8 new "BC" being bigger than other ships)

IJN has run out of cash but can at least on paper say it has as many new ships as the RN (and its defiantly one of the big 3 as the MN/RM/etc are dropped of the map)
 
The parlous state of the French economy would not have allowed for much in the way of capital ship construction...

So you are positing a Keynesian effect that boosts German industry so as to allow it to build more ships, but think French industry could not benefit from such an effect?

IMO France was, along with the UK and the US, one of the economies that would benefit most from the government spending more money during the 30s. So long as France had the political will, they could certainly find the money (OK, borrow the money) to build more ships. That in turn would provide stimulus to heavy industry and ship building. However, France had limited numbers of slipways. I suspect the size of the French fleet, while larger, would be smaller relative to the British and American fleets of such a TL.

Not that this is necessarily bad - France had no way to compete with Britain and the USA anyway - their competition was with Italy and Germany. Given the slack in the French economy and the relatively good ship production infrastructure in France, I think they would have the advantage over the Germans and Italians, both of which would be hard pressed to build more than they did OTL.

If, and again a big if, Der Fuhrer demanded 16 capital ships by 1939 it would have seriously effected Luftwaffe and Heer re-armament, but by how much is speculative, applying Keynesian theory to the world economy would probably give Germany more heavy industry and shipbuilding capability in a NWT world.
(NB: In his later theories John Maynard Keynes upset a lot of people by suggesting that Military spending was not necessarily an absolute loss and could be a positive)

Keynesian effects only work when there is slack in an economy - it is not an effect whereby spending more money creates more capacity if the other factors required to support that capacity does not exist. Thus, any time after Hitler comes to power, spending more resources will not be creating more capacity in the German economy, it can only reduce the capacity devoted to the army and air force. Now, what could happen is that Weimar Germany gets into the naval race (in violation of Versailles, which in the 20s and early 30s could have ugly consequences for Germany), that could have a Keynesian stimulus effect.

I do wonder how the US would act without the Washington naval treaties.

And does anyone know how much a realistic "delux" Royal Navy would cost the British?

fasquardon
 

hipper

Banned
And does anyone know how much a realistic "delux" Royal Navy would cost the British?

fasquardon

about 10 million per year over 5 years to construct 5 battleships an aircraft carrier a couple of crises and a couple of squadrons of destroyed

then that same 10 million every year to maintain these ships.

cheers Hipper
 
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