Sucessfull Kapp Putsch but...

One where France does not re-act immediatly. If the Soviet Union was to be far more sucessfull (and a little earlier) in it's first attempt at invading Poland, would France be forced to accept the restored German monarchy as a bulwark agianst communism? Can this done done at all?
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
IIRC, the French never really had a problem with Germany being a monarchy; it was more the Germans who were fed up with the Hohenzollerns' (by which of course I mean that fool Wilhelm II's) behavior during the War that they were fine with Scheidemann's abolishment of the monarchy.

A Soviet Poland's probably a good excuse for France to allow the Germans to ignore some of the Versailles dictates, but it's still so soon after the War...

I'd say the Entente basically says to Germany, "Keep those goddamned troops in the East fighting the Reds and okay, fine, whatever. The second they start crossing the Elbe, though, we'll mess you up."
 
Well we can't know for sure the Soviets intended to invade Poland (or the other way around) but I'm sure the French would happily use the Germans as a bulwark against communism.

Welcome to the board by the way. :)
 
Hmm. I'm not an expert, but Susano had asserted that French considered Germany a more major threat than Communism, which seems pretty understandable.

And while who started the Polish-Soviet War is a difficult question, the Soviets didn't exactly stop at the Curzon line and tell the Poles not to do it again. They were doing what anyone would: trying to get everything they could from their circumstances. If that included Poland, well and good.
 
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Susano

Banned
Hmm. I'm not an expert, but Susano had asserted that French considered Germany a more major threat than Communism, which seems pretty understandable.
Actually I was playing bot :D
But that does seem realsitic to me , too. Howevever, and that as a restriction to Faeelisn assertments, one should not understimate how chaotic French politics were, too, not just Weimar politics, so a scenario wher French politics are somehow diverted should be constructable.

However, over long France simply will not accept this. If Poland holds on its own (that is, as IOTL wins the Battle of Warsaw), then after all there is no need for Grmany "intervening". Indeed, if Germany retakes Posen, it would be a second power atacking Poland, an ally of the communists and not a bulwark against it. And besides, the French bvery much were against the Hohenzollern monarchy. The Brits, no, the French yes. Mostly because it was a symbol of German nationalism and especially of the old, strong Empire I guess, and also partly because the Hohenzollerns had become such villified propaganda targets in the war that France and GB became entrapped in its own propaganda lies...

So if we assume some politcial chaos restricting France from intervening promptly, then eventually it will sort itself out and then probably start ultimatums that Germany has to return the Corridor and Posen to Poland, or if all of Conrgess Poland has been conquered by the Soviets, that it is tor estaore those territories as an independant Poland. And at that point, France was still militarily superior...
 
IIRC, the French never really had a problem with Germany being a monarchy; it was more the Germans who were fed up with the Hohenzollerns' (by which of course I mean that fool Wilhelm II's) behavior during the War that they were fine with Scheidemann's abolishment of the monarchy.

A Soviet Poland's probably a good excuse for France to allow the Germans to ignore some of the Versailles dictates, but it's still so soon after the War...

I'd say the Entente basically says to Germany, "Keep those goddamned troops in the East fighting the Reds and okay, fine, whatever. The second they start crossing the Elbe, though, we'll mess you up."
Hmm. Would some of these negative feelings be slightly calmed if old Bill II died suddenly and made way from Bill III?

Well we can't know for sure the Soviets intended to invade Poland (or the other way around) but I'm sure the French would happily use the Germans as a bulwark against communism.

Welcome to the board by the way. :)

Thank you for the welcome! :D I'm hoping for in this scenario that the Russian's sucessfully capture Warsaw and keep moving, possibly hoping to stir up trouble in Munich agian and then further exploit the revolution, or something like that.

Hmm. I'm not an expert, but Susano had asserted that French considered Germany a more major threat than Communism, which seems pretty understandable.

And while who started the Polish-Soviet War is a difficult question, the Soviets didn't exactly stop at the Curzon line and tell the Poles not to do it again. They were doing what anyone would: trying to get everything they could from their circumstances. If that included Poland, well and good.

This! Except I'm also hoping not only for the reds to win, but to somehow achive victory over Poland somewhat more quickly, if this is possible.

Actually I was playing bot :D
But that does seem realsitic to me , too. Howevever, and that as a restriction to Faeelisn assertments, one should not understimate how chaotic French politics were, too, not just Weimar politics, so a scenario wher French politics are somehow diverted should be constructable.

However, over long France simply will not accept this. If Poland holds on its own (that is, as IOTL wins the Battle of Warsaw), then after all there is no need for Grmany "intervening". Indeed, if Germany retakes Posen, it would be a second power atacking Poland, an ally of the communists and not a bulwark against it. And besides, the French bvery much were against the Hohenzollern monarchy. The Brits, no, the French yes. Mostly because it was a symbol of German nationalism and especially of the old, strong Empire I guess, and also partly because the Hohenzollerns had become such villified propaganda targets in the war that France and GB became entrapped in its own propaganda lies...

So if we assume some politcial chaos restricting France from intervening promptly, then eventually it will sort itself out and then probably start ultimatums that Germany has to return the Corridor and Posen to Poland, or if all of Conrgess Poland has been conquered by the Soviets, that it is tor estaore those territories as an independant Poland. And at that point, France was still militarily superior...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for Germany to annex any part of Poland (if this is possible), I just want to have the monarchy be restored and not have the French gut them for it.
 

Susano

Banned
Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for Germany to annex any part of Poland (if this is possible), I just want to have the monarchy be restored and not have the French gut them for it.

Well, three things:
1) So the Kapp Putsch happens, and the French dont intervene because theyre more afraid of the Reds? Well, hm, if indeed remonarchist Germany doesnt act aggresisvely (but what do you want to bet on that? ;) ) that could work... after all, I dont think the French particularily about German state form, its mostly a symbolic and propaganda issue, as said. OTOH, the loss of Poland as a thorn in Germanys side could lead to France to be even harsher on Germany, and hence demanding agressively the abolishment of the Hohenzollern dynasty.
2) If there is a restauration that remains in place then, congratulations new Emperor! Now you have to deal with French occupation of the Rhineland, hyperinflation and politcial isnatbility, so it will be the monarchy instead of the republic which is (further) discredited.
3) And lastly I dont think the Kapp Putsch had the restauration of the monarchy as main goal. It simply was anti-democratic. What tehy wanted was a restauration of the Prussian authoritarian state of Beamten (state officials) and militaries, with or without a monarch.

So I guess it could happen, but it would be problematic...

As for William III, if at all he was worse than his father. He led the really ultraconservative and aggressive political faction before WW1...
 
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