Succession to the French throne

So, this is something that recently confused me.

We know that following the victory of the Valois in the 100 Years war succession to the throne of France was through the male line, and was limited to male descendants of Louis IX, in 1589, Henri of Navarre became the new King being the senior male heir to Louis IX alive at the time. But I was looking at the family tree of the Bourbons and noted that according to the family tree of the Bourbons on wikipedia, that the Counts Of Montpensier appeared to be senior in the line of succession, so why did they not succeed? Have I missed something here?

Here's the link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_of_Henry_IV_of_France#Descent_from_Louis_IX
 
So, this is something that recently confused me.

We know that following the victory of the Valois in the 100 Years war succession to the throne of France was through the male line, and was limited to male descendants of Louis IX, in 1589, Henri of Navarre became the new King being the senior male heir to Louis IX alive at the time. But I was looking at the family tree of the Bourbons and noted that according to the family tree of the Bourbons on wikipedia, that the Counts Of Montpensier appeared to be senior in the line of succession, so why did they not succeed? Have I missed something here?

Here's the link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_of_Henry_IV_of_France#Descent_from_Louis_IX

From what I can see the Montpensier line was not a strictly male line. By 1589 there have been 2 women to hold the title in their own right (Marie in the early 1400s and Louise in the mid-1500s) meaning they aren't following Salic law and the then Duke, who was Louise's grandson, isn't the senior male line Bourbon. The Navarre line was senior because unlike the Montpensiers, he came from an unbroken male line descending from Louis IX
 
From what I can see the Montpensier line was not a strictly male line. By 1589 there have been 2 women to hold the title in their own right (Marie in the early 1400s and Louise in the mid-1500s) meaning they aren't following Salic law and the then Duke, who was Louise's grandson, isn't the senior male line Bourbon. The Navarre line was senior because unlike the Montpensiers, he came from an unbroken male line descending from Louis IX

Ahhh I see, I feel a little embarrassed now aha.

Hmm, it would be interesting to see an unbroken male line Montpensier branch though
 
Ahhh I see, I feel a little embarrassed now aha.

Hmm, it would be interesting to see an unbroken male line Montpensier branch though

The POD would have to be in the late 1300s to get either Charles or John (who both died childless IOTL) sons. With that POD who knows what happens to the Valois mainline, maybe Charles VIII or Louis XII leaves heirs or the line of one of Henri II's sons survives. The Bourbon's may never get the throne in this scenario.
 
The POD would have to be in the late 1300s to get either Charles or John (who both died childless IOTL) sons. With that POD who knows what happens to the Valois mainline, maybe Charles VIII or Louis XII leaves heirs or the line of one of Henri II's sons survives. The Bourbon's may never get the throne in this scenario.

This is very true. Would be quite interesting to explore such a scenario though, no?
 
This is very true. Would be quite interesting to explore such a scenario though, no?
It certainly would. Let's say that John manages a surviving son with his second wife Anne de Bourbon-LaMarche who we'll call John after his father and both his grandfathers. John the younger is born in 1400, a year before his father's OTL death.

They'll end up being Valois' here (the Bourbon name came through John's sister Marie marrying the Duke of Bourbon). They'd pretty clearly be next after Francois's line, as their descended (male line in this scenario) from John II of France via his third son John (Francis' line was descended from the eldest son, Charles V, and by this point the second son, Louis, had no direct male descendants).
 
It certainly would. Let's say that John manages a surviving son with his second wife Anne de Bourbon-LaMarche who we'll call John after his father and both his grandfathers. John the younger is born in 1400, a year before his father's OTL death.

They'll end up being Valois' here (the Bourbon name came through John's sister Marie marrying the Duke of Bourbon). They'd pretty clearly be next after Francois's line, as their descended (male line in this scenario) from John II of France via his third son John (Francis' line was descended from the eldest son, Charles V, and by this point the second son, Louis, had no direct male descendants).
Alright interesting I imagine they’d hold some position of influence at court and potential military appointments
 
It certainly would. Let's say that John manages a surviving son with his second wife Anne de Bourbon-LaMarche who we'll call John after his father and both his grandfathers. John the younger is born in 1400, a year before his father's OTL death.

They'll end up being Valois' here (the Bourbon name came through John's sister Marie marrying the Duke of Bourbon). They'd pretty clearly be next after Francois's line, as their descended (male line in this scenario) from John II of France via his third son John (Francis' line was descended from the eldest son, Charles V, and by this point the second son, Louis, had no direct male descendants).

My first thought is visiting Valois Street for Mardi Gras.
 
Indeed wouldn’t the next heir be conde?

The order would be as follows is 1589:
  1. Henry IV
  2. Cardinal Charles de Bourbon (Henry's uncle)
  3. Henri II, Prince of Conde (son of Henry's cousin)
  4. Francois, Prince of Conti (Henry's cousin & Conde's uncle)
  5. Cardinal de Bourbon (Same as Conti)
  6. Charles, Count of Soissons (half brother to Conti and the Cardinal)
  7. Francois, Duke of Montpensier (claim through his grandfather the Prince of La Roche-sur-Yon, not his Montpensier grandmother)
  8. Henri de Bourbon (son of the above)
After this, you have to go further back, I've been Wikipedia following sons of French Kings and, as of Louis VI, I have yet to find another completely male line that makes it all the way to 1589 intact, though I'll let you know if I do find one.
 
The order would be as follows is 1589:
  1. Henry IV
  2. Cardinal Charles de Bourbon (Henry's uncle)
  3. Henri II, Prince of Conde (son of Henry's cousin)
  4. Francois, Prince of Conti (Henry's cousin & Conde's uncle)
  5. Cardinal de Bourbon (Same as Conti)
  6. Charles, Count of Soissons (half brother to Conti and the Cardinal)
  7. Francois, Duke of Montpensier (claim through his grandfather the Prince of La Roche-sur-Yon, not his Montpensier grandmother)
  8. Henri de Bourbon (son of the above)
After this, you have to go further back, I've been Wikipedia following sons of French Kings and, as of Louis VI, I have yet to find another completely male line that makes it all the way to 1589 intact, though I'll let you know if I do find one.
Cheers dude! I have to
Admit the thought of seeing what happens if Henry IV dies whilst his uncle is still alive is fascinating
 
Update: if you go through all the cadet branches, based on Wikipedia and a little googling, there are no other fully male lines descended of Kings post-Hugh Capet. The 8 men compiled above truly are the only options.
 
Cheers dude! I have to
Admit the thought of seeing what happens if Henry IV dies whilst his uncle is still alive is fascinating
Excuse the double post, but I just want to emphasize how bleak the options are without Henry IV
  • Cardinal Charles de Bourbon - a literal priest, won't leave issue unless he renounces his holy orders, and even then he dies in 1590
  • Henri, Prince of Conde - An one-year-old, sure he lived a reasonably long life IOTL but they won't know that, and does France really want a 17 year regency
  • Francois, Prince of Conti - had no kids IOTL, currently married to his first wife
  • Cardinal de Borbon - again, a priest
  • Charles, Count of Soissons - currently a single 23-year-old
  • Francois, Duke of Montpensier - only person who already has a son (16-year-old Henri), dead by 1592
  • Henri of Montpensier - single teenager
Aren't Courtenays (descent from Louis VI) still exist by them?
From what I can find there isn't a direct male line descendant around, the last one I can find is Francois de Courtenay, who died in 1578.
Would they be recognised as the rightful heirs in this instance then?
even in that case, the Bourbon line is still senior. They'd only be on deck if the Conde/Conti/Soissons/Montpensiers all die out
 
The Portuguese Houses of Aviz and Braganza were also dynastical direct branches of the Capetian dinasty, descending from the Duke of Burgundy Robert I, son of Robert II of France.
 
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