Succession, if Elizabeth I dies in 1570?

the only impediment was that there was no proof that Catherine Grey's marriage was legal - she lost "a piece of paper", the witness included her sister in law who was dead by the time the marriage emerged, etc - her real offence was that Elizabeth didn't like her very much - and that Seymour's offence was marrying someone close to the throne without consent. Fairly easy to blame it all on Elizabeth being vindictive and finding a witness (the Archbishop says oops we made a mistake) to say it was valid - James VI and I had no problem accepting the marriage was valid once he was safely on the English throne.
As i said it depends entirely on whether the council want a) a child monarch b) a child monarch in their control or c) the protestant unification of England and Scotland.
Seymour wasn't particularly unpopular at court - this is before his second dodgy marriage - though he would be easy enough to control and it is unlikely he would be made sole regent for his son.
So Elizabeth dies February 1570 after a short illness - the Queen aware of her impending death - names her beloved Dudley "protector of the realm" - when asked to name an heir though mumbles about he "who has the most right" - a cabal of the council approach the Earl of Hertford and take custody of his son - with the intention of proclaiming him King as Edward VII - others favour the Scots King.

And the great dance begins.
 
Yup the dance begins but i tend to think the council will decide on a king in the hand is a better bet in the short term.
 
Yup the dance begins but i tend to think the council will decide on a king in the hand is a better bet in the short term.

Very true, whether this is contested later is another issue. So, I suppose Seymour looks more likely than James, if they go for local born lad.
 
I think it is a politically obvious choice for a Protestant Council needing to ensure the realm's security and religion at speed. Mary will protest from her prison and James' grandfather Lennox will rattle the sabre a bit on behalf of his wife and grandson but I don't think at this period there will be much appetite and his position as regent is weak - Seymour is an easier option than naming James in preference to his mother even if it offers personal union - the other options are too unpalatable for the council.
They have legislation to back up the new Edward VII - and the rival (Mary Stuart) is in custody - i don't doubt you'll continue to see plots on Mary's behalf and once she is dead then conflict with Scotland is possible but that's hardly unusual for England and plenty of Scots are in England's pay - two young King's on one island - plenty of marriage options and future ties between their descendants to bring about union or not and a long-standing dynastic claim for England for the Stuarts.
In marital terms - there are plenty of wife options - a council more favourable than Elizabeth to the French and Dutch rebellious protestants - so Catherine of Navarre (b1559) or the elder daughters of William the Silent are options - if he marries later then Anne or Elizabeth of Denmark are options as is Anna of Sweden.
 
I think it is a politically obvious choice for a Protestant Council needing to ensure the realm's security and religion at speed. Mary will protest from her prison and James' grandfather Lennox will rattle the sabre a bit on behalf of his wife and grandson but I don't think at this period there will be much appetite and his position as regent is weak - Seymour is an easier option than naming James in preference to his mother even if it offers personal union - the other options are too unpalatable for the council.
They have legislation to back up the new Edward VII - and the rival (Mary Stuart) is in custody - i don't doubt you'll continue to see plots on Mary's behalf and once she is dead then conflict with Scotland is possible but that's hardly unusual for England and plenty of Scots are in England's pay - two young King's on one island - plenty of marriage options and future ties between their descendants to bring about union or not and a long-standing dynastic claim for England for the Stuarts.
In marital terms - there are plenty of wife options - a council more favourable than Elizabeth to the French and Dutch rebellious protestants - so Catherine of Navarre (b1559) or the elder daughters of William the Silent are options - if he marries later then Anne or Elizabeth of Denmark are options as is Anna of Sweden.

This is very true. I wonder, would his regency therefore see a shift of power from crown to a select group of advisors, forming the main body of government, would he therefore need to take power back when he reached his majority?
 
This is very true. I wonder, would his regency therefore see a shift of power from crown to a select group of advisors, forming the main body of government, would he therefore need to take power back when he reached his majority?

That is kind of what the Privy Council has been doing organically since the reign of Edward VI, getting more and more powerful by increments. This is probably why when Elizabeth does become ill and reaches the point that she's convinced she's dying that she'll probably try to get an ADULT successor. This is why I'm convinced that in the early 1570's that Henry Hastings has the best chance at become King.

He's not part of a politically discredited family like the Greys, or a woman like Margaret Clifford, or a child like Edward Seymour, his brother, or James VI of Scots. And James VI of Scots has the additional handicaps of being a foreign monarch, a Calvinist when England's upper classes are VERY High Church (as we would call it in the modern RL) and under an unpopular weak regency, and if James VI of Scots does get sick and die young then his succession is even more unclear than the English Succession, there's a bunch of people in Scotland with blood ties to the House of Stuart, and plenty of them are in powerful positions in society. If James VI of Scots ups and dies without issue then Scotland is looking at a War of Succession even if he does pick an heir.

But if they do go with Edward Seymour, then I assume that Elizabeth's councilors will coalesce around someone to serve as a defacto Lord-Protector, even if they don't give the man in question the actual title, the memory of Edward VI's Lord-Protectors will hang over their heads. I could see either William Cecil or Francis Walsingham emerging as such a man.

But a check on them trying to seize all of the Crown's power will be Parliament and the Peers, after all if the Privy Council and/or the Lord-Protector hoards the power then what is left for them?

Plus Elizabeth might think about the international front, how would her fellow monarchs view a child-king, though she might worry about the loss of face of selecting someone with a weak blood-claim like Henry Hastings. I think ultimately it will come down to someone like Francis Walshingham whispering in Elizabeth's ear their thoughts as she dies of... Whatever she's dying of.

For her to be coherent enough to make a choice I suggest she contract pneumonia or tuberculosis, something serious enough for her to KNOW she's dying and there's little hope of recovery, but gives her time to pick an heir before becoming too far gone to think.
 
Very very true. I can see Elizabeth going for Hastings for the reasons you've mentioned. I can also see some of her councillors cjafing at that and wanting to bring someone who they can control.
 
Very very true. I can see Elizabeth going for Hastings for the reasons you've mentioned. I can also see some of her councillors cjafing at that and wanting to bring someone who they can control.

Out of everyone present at Elizabeth's court, I really think that it will be Francis Walshingham's advice that will win the day. He's has been at Elizabeth's side for almost since the start of her reign and is her spymaster, and a principal adviser. Whatever he decides is for the best will probably be the key advice that will sway Elizabeth's decision.

The question is... Would Francis prefer Edward Seymour and mold him into a King, or gamble on an adult like Henry Hastings who could keep the kingdom in hand as there are plenty of enemies both within and without that would work to undo everything Elizabeth has striven to make reality, like England's emerging Anglican Church.

If Walshingham is convinced that Henry Hastings can serve as an effective monarch then he'll advise Elizabeth and his peers that this is the man to support, if he isn't sold on Hastings then he'll go with a child who can educated, like Edward Seymour or Ferdinando Stanley.
 
Out of everyone present at Elizabeth's court, I really think that it will be Francis Walshingham's advice that will win the day. He's has been at Elizabeth's side for almost since the start of her reign and is her spymaster, and a principal adviser. Whatever he decides is for the best will probably be the key advice that will sway Elizabeth's decision.

The question is... Would Francis prefer Edward Seymour and mold him into a King, or gamble on an adult like Henry Hastings who could keep the kingdom in hand as there are plenty of enemies both within and without that would work to undo everything Elizabeth has striven to make reality, like England's emerging Anglican Church.

If Walshingham is convinced that Henry Hastings can serve as an effective monarch then he'll advise Elizabeth and his peers that this is the man to support, if he isn't sold on Hastings then he'll go with a child who can educated, like Edward Seymour or Ferdinando Stanley.

Very true, hmm I guess it depends on his opinion of Hastings then doesn't it. And of course the plot direction of the story. I am leaning toward Hastings, but I am also tempted to have there be a minor war perhaps to settle the matter.
 
Very true, hmm I guess it depends on his opinion of Hastings then doesn't it. And of course the plot direction of the story. I am leaning toward Hastings, but I am also tempted to have there be a minor war perhaps to settle the matter.

I think a good place to start would be in 1571-1572 in the aftermath of the Ridolfi plot, this scheme was to have Mary of Scots escape, marry the Duke of Norfolk, overthrow Elizabeth, restore the Catholic Faith, etc. In January of 1572 was when Thomas Howard, the 4th Duke of Norfolk was convicted of treason, I could see Elizabeth becoming ill in this time due to it being the middle of winter, plus it was the Ridolfi plot (that Mary of Scots knew about and accented too) that killed any thought of trying to restore Mary of Scots to the Scottish throne.

This means that while Elizabeth I is beginning to die, Mary of Scots has completely discredited herself to pretty much everyone except die-hard Catholics (and they are becoming thin on the ground).

For Elizabeth to decide the succession at this time would mean that she has to be A) Ill enough to believe that she is dying with little to no hope of recovery and B) Still coherent enough to convey some sort of decision. This is where her chief councilors will come into play, especially Francis Walshingham.

A minor war could break out, but it would be a local affair, but what I see being more important is all of the cloak and daggers happening just out of sight, basically as you said before, more like House of Cards than the Second War of the Roses. It won't be about who's got the better army, it's about who's better at playing the game of thrones.
 
I think a good place to start would be in 1571-1572 in the aftermath of the Ridolfi plot, this scheme was to have Mary of Scots escape, marry the Duke of Norfolk, overthrow Elizabeth, restore the Catholic Faith, etc. In January of 1572 was when Thomas Howard, the 4th Duke of Norfolk was convicted of treason, I could see Elizabeth becoming ill in this time due to it being the middle of winter, plus it was the Ridolfi plot (that Mary of Scots knew about and accented too) that killed any thought of trying to restore Mary of Scots to the Scottish throne.

This means that while Elizabeth I is beginning to die, Mary of Scots has completely discredited herself to pretty much everyone except die-hard Catholics (and they are becoming thin on the ground).

For Elizabeth to decide the succession at this time would mean that she has to be A) Ill enough to believe that she is dying with little to no hope of recovery and B) Still coherent enough to convey some sort of decision. This is where her chief councilors will come into play, especially Francis Walshingham.

A minor war could break out, but it would be a local affair, but what I see being more important is all of the cloak and daggers happening just out of sight, basically as you said before, more like House of Cards than the Second War of the Roses. It won't be about who's got the better army, it's about who's better at playing the game of thrones.

Alright that I can see. So, if say the stress of everything to do with the Ridolfi plot combines with the illness that had slowly been eating away at Elizabeth, finally takes its hold properly in January, 1572, destroying her system, and leaving her largely bed ridden, the nobles will be flocking to court to assess the situation. No doubt, she'd want an adult on the throne to prevent, as you said, harm done to the monarchy. Hastings was in the north at the time, he might be summoned to court, as one last favour to the Queen, or he might be charged with ensuring Mary definitely does not leave. Given his loyalty to her, I can see Liz naming him her heir, or preferred successor, verbally. But of course without a written detail, it would be moot, so the dance would begin, between those wanting to follow the Queen's word to the letter, and those wanting to follow the succession as set out in the Third Succession Act.
 
I imagine people such as Walsingham and Dudley might well try and get Hastings on the throne, Walsingham out of loyalty to the Queen's last words, Dudley so that his sister can be Queen. Burghley might be a different issue though, he could switch either way, depending on who he thinks he has the better chance of keeping England stable, and Scotland out of their affairs.
 
In some respects this would be a mirror of Lady Jane Grey vs. Mary Tudor, the first was made heir by the word of the monarch, the second the heir due to a prior will approved by Parliament.

However under these circumstances we aren't dealing with a popular figure going against a hated regency, the situation is more murky, plus you could argue that Hastings victory would count as 'Right of the Sword', and his challengers probably won't get much popular support.

For example, Margaret Clifford has BEEN positioning herself as the heir-apparent for years since Katherine Grey disgraced herself, but she's made a lot of people angry in the process, the biggest one being Elizabeth herself.

All in all I say that Hastings has the best shot to become King under these circumstances, and if he has any doubts I'm sure that he can be convinced that it's his duty to become King.
 
I think there's a mistake in just taking what happen in 1603 and rewinding to change the names. One seriously significant note is that this would mean she dies not long after the Pope excommunicated her, which probably has major consequences in both directions. This was still a very religious/superstitious age, so many will see it as portentous. Conversely it would almost certainly lead to speculation that she was poisoned by Catholics. In other words, I think there's every chance this leads to all kinds of upheaval and potentially multiple candidates with significant support. But either way, I would not expect a smooth transition as in Otl.
 
With regards to Walsingham, he was apparently in Paris as the ambassador to France in 1570-73 (Protestants hid in his house on St Batholomew's Day), so he might not be on the ground to influence the succession. It's possible Elizabeth recalls him when she first gets sick for advice, but whether he'd get back in time is questionable depending on travel times and what not (a long, drawn out illness like Tuberculosis is probably his best bet in this regard). Even then, any opponents he has at court might try to delay his homecoming.
 
Ok I will admit that the succession would not be smooth, but it wouldn't turn into an epic civil war either. None of the candidates have major, popular support right now, but whomever Elizabeth indicates is the heir under these circumstances will get a major boost of support from those who want to gain favor with the new Monarch, or those who simply want stability and if Elizabeth chooses someone solid (or can be molded into someone solid) then that would do much to make the transition easier for the person in question.

I like the idea of religious convulsions playing a role, the remaining Catholics will be heartened by Elizabeth becoming ill so soon after an official Excommunication, however they will quickly discover that Protestantism has made major in-roads as that side will be convinced that this is a poisoning plot from some conspirator that slipped detection from the Ridolfi plot.

Thus a major (perhaps LITERAL) witch-hunt will begin, and known and suspected crypto-catholics will be the first to be burned at the stake.

Now this illness, it might be something that Elizabeth could be suspected of having had for a while but either the early symptoms weren't detected, or Elizabeth was aware that she was sick for a while and successfully hid her condition. I think the first would be more realistic, this is the era in which every single bowel movement the monarch has is subject to examination.

It could be late-stage cancer of some sort, or Tuberculosis, but either one would give Elizabeth a chance to settle some of her affairs before becoming too far gone.

At that point the games will begin in the court of Elizabeth I to see who will be her successor, and if there will be a major challenger to that successor.
 
I agree. If Walsingham is delayed then I think Dudley and butghley will have the main say and influence over any decisions
 
I just don't see Hastings being chosen over a descendant of Henry VII when there are several to choose from. It's been less than a century since the end of the Wars of the Roses, and it was still a topic in popular culture (as we see with Shakespeare's plays a few decades later). Choosing such a distant relative would be asking for trouble (and implicitly undermining Elizabeth's own claim to the throne, should she somehow recover from her illness, something that she would doubtless consider).
 
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