Successfull German Settlement in Venezuela

[DaSla]

What would the effects be if the German Settlements in Venezuela, were most of the colonists were killed by disease and hostile natives. during the 16th century had a more successful outcome then OTL, and the Bankers who started the colony were not stripped of control. Would this colony remain in German/HRE control during the times of the German Empire, or would it become independent later in its lifetime like many Spanish colonies in the Americas did during the 19th century?

 

[Susano]

It was still a colony of the Spanish crown, just given as feudal lands to said bankiers, who started a German settlement. Now that is the the intersting part, IMO: What if Venezuela had thus been settled German, and after independance had become a Germanophone country? For this the rule of the Welsers indeed needs to stay intact, without spain trying to rob the lands back to direct control.

And IMO, that can be done with a serie of diasters before teh Weslers get the land. Venezuela must simply be made thoroughly uninteresting for the Spansih Corwn, so that it is content with the Welsers getting at leats some profit for the crown out of it...

 

[Tom_B]

I was intrigued by this notion on Ye Olde Board. Instead of a completely German Venezuela I was envisioning a mosaic of German and Spanish colonies with a bilingual nation emerging.

On idea was that the Spanish King would allow German Catholics fleeing the Thirty Years War to resettle in the German colonies (departing from Spanish Netherlands) as a second wave.

So the nation that emerges is bilingual but united in a particularly sealous Catholicism.

Tom

 

[Susano]

Eventually one language would overtake the other, just like English emerged a sthe only US language, and Spanish as only language in Chile and Argentinia. I dont think Venezuela becoming and STAYING bilingual is plausible...

 

[Tom_B]

Hmm. The offcial language would likely be Spanish but my theory is that there would be as a said an interspersing of Spanish and German communities let's say 60% German and 40% Spanish. The very top crust of society would be Spanish but below that the Germans have some influence. There would be incentives that get stronger over time for clever folk (including those of AmerIndian descent) to know both languages.

Tom

 

[Susano]

IMO, no. In such a case, the German population would be slowly assimilated to be Spanish speakers, a shappeend with ALL german emmigrant groups over the time, no matter wether they went to Argentinia, Chile, USA, Canada or whatever.

 

[Condottiero]

Near Caracas there is an small population called Colonia Tovar that is like a Bavarian village, its population descends from german immigrants that arrived in the first half of the last century. Most of them still look like germans, but only very few speak german.

I think XVI century german colonists would have assimilated to the language of the ruling elites, that is spanish.

 

[schrammy]

about how many new settlers are we talking about?

if those settlers where numberus enough might this have seriously effected the pop base of spain (and its collonies) and its economie, maybe to a point where it could keep being a major player in europe for a longer time?

might the increased influx of german settlers have lead to a better/much better spanish german relations.

if we indeed end up with a more powerfull spain that is pro german
would france maybe change her attitude maybe they become verry paranoid.

 

[mishery]

On the language question...

If there are lots of German settlers, what you could end up with is a more differentiated Venezuelan dialect, with a lot of German words, calqued idioms and perhaps an influence on the syntax, perhaps the tenses/moods/aspects become more like German than Spanish. The words that entered Spanish, would I suspect be simple words, not long complex compound forms and I guess they would be ones which a Spanish pronunciation is easy, with consonant clusters that exist in spanish.

 

[jolo]

I do consider bilingualism possible if the Germans had founded their own counties, as they were entitled to - it could be similar to Switzerland.

The settlement probably mainly failed because the settlers spent most of their time looking in the interior for gold, getting diseases and making enemies in the local population.

A few more IQ-points for the bankers might have been sufficient to base the colony on all kinds of income instead of just going for gold - if the bank is just happy with getting a share of the local taxes and of the local companies founded on behalf of the bank.

A few people would still search for gold and die in the jungle. Others would be much more active in establishing farms, a harbor, a small city, and so on. That could easily lead to lots of Germans following, trade instead of fighting with most of the locals, and so on.

I don't know what the conflict with the Spanish Crown which finished the settlement was based on - but I suppose a little bit more success would be seen positive by the Spanish. At that time, they didn't need to worry too much about independence movements, and it would be profitable for them to make the colony attractive for immigrants, by allowing some autonomy in terms of language and the likes.