Successful Ardennes Offensive

This is entirely true, the Germans considered the western allies to absurdly cautious when on the offence. Even after the Ardennes offensive some people within the allied high command thought the German ground-force strength was on par with their own.(A notion that would have produced hysterical mirth in the German command)

The main problem was the British/US troops were unwilling to place themselves in danger at this stage of the war, and the allied commanders weren’t ruthless enough to force them. (Of course there were a few exceptions to this rule such as the US 101 division.)

Even in 1945 when the Wehrmact had practically disintegrated the allied advance was painfully slow

Of course, the western allies were working on a different set of rules to the Soviets / Germans - the belief in the value of the human lives under their command. Where Zukhov etc under Stalin could not afford to care about the massive losses taken to reach their objective, Ike wanted to bring home as many boys as possible while winning the war - hence the doctrine of letting the arty and fighter-bombers do most of the work. This was a result of the different societies that produced the armies at war - the democratic, citizen army.

Also, the UK had no more men - they had to husband their forces.

It's not absurd caution. it is a lack of ruthlessnes. But I think the society they defended, and that produced such a mindset, is infinitely beter than the ruthless slaughter of the Wehrmacht / Red Army
 
In terms of individuals it feels very harsh to claim they had a lack of valor. I certainly wouldn't want to be killed in a war (full stop), let alone one where I know victory is just a matter of time.
But in terms of being 'good (in the sense of being adept, not the moral sense) soldiers', this lack is noticable.

While the strategic caution coupled with tactical caution (meet a couple of German skirmishers in a building, go to ground, call up artillery, wait while artillery does its work and then continue) may have made the allied advance less costly in blood, it was far slower than it should have been given the vulnerabilities of the opponent they faced.

That isn't to advocate that the Allies should have launched the Somme-esque attacks that the Red Army was sometimes called upon to make, but to be fair the German army facing them was in such a state it is unlikely it could have mustered much resistance if they had.
 
Of course, the western allies were working on a different set of rules to the Soviets / Germans - the belief in the value of the human lives under their command. Where Zukhov etc under Stalin could not afford to care about the massive losses taken to reach their objective, Ike wanted to bring home as many boys as possible while winning the war - hence the doctrine of letting the arty and fighter-bombers do most of the work. This was a result of the different societies that produced the armies at war - the democratic, citizen army.

Also, the UK had no more men - they had to husband their forces.

It's not absurd caution. it is a lack of ruthlessnes. But I think the society they defended, and that produced such a mindset, is infinitely beter than the ruthless slaughter of the Wehrmacht / Red Army

True, The SU under Stalin was a very different societey, and the red army command's indifference to casualties did at times led to an appalling losses.

However it's ability to ruthlessly exploit enemy weakness to maximum effect meant it could fight the Germans on equal terms; it also shortened the war, perhaps ultimately saving lives in the end.

I Suppose it is also worth mentioning the SU was in a life-or-death struggle with Germany whereas the US & Britain weren’t. No matter how well the e war went for Hitler he wouldn’t be able to land 20-odd panzer divisions on Manhattan Island.

Know what I mean.;)
 

trajen777

Banned
Possible scenarios for the German forces to maximize their ability to win or be in a better position to be least successful. This is a possible scenario for the program. This is based upon the Germans
  1. Neutralizing the Allied air forces
  2. Achieving the quick break down with minimal losses
  3. Cutting the allied supply line
  4. Development of the New U-Boats to reduce the flow of war material from America.
So the plan is:
1. Neutralizing the Allied air forces this is based upon the redirection of critical technology to jet planes (no Hitler redirecting resources to Jet Bomber 262) and ground to air weapons (the tech transfer would be from V2’s)
A. Anti aircraft weapons
Henschel Hs 117 Schmetterling
Of all experimental surface-to-air missiles, this one came closest to an operational weapons system. At the end of the war it was in production, but it was never operationally used. With a length of 4.29m, it was a relatively small missile. Its shape was that of a small aircraft, with a sustainer rocket engine in its body, and two boost engines, mounted above and below its fuselage. Range was about 32km, and it could be used against targets up to 10,000m high, although in such cases guidance problems were considerable: Aiming was visual, by means of a radio command link. There were also experiments with air-drops, with the use of radar for guidance, and with proximity fuses.
Rheintochter
This was a large anti-aircraft missile, rather crude in design. It had four tail fins, six fins on the center body, and four canard control fins. It had a boost engine in the tail, and a sustainer in the front fuselage. Control was again visual aiming with a radio command link. Rheintochter III was smaller than Rheintochter I, but had better performance. The project was abandoned in December 1944.
Taifun
This was an unguided anti-aircraft weapon. It was a simple, 1.93m long, spin-stabilized rocket with a 0.5kg warhead. Taifun was accelerated to Mach 3+, and could reach altitudes up to 15000m. It was intended to fire salvos of 30 missiles. At the end of the war it was in mass production.
Wasserfall
The Wasserfall SAM was developed at Peenemüde, and was based on experience with the A-4, also known as V-2. It was smaller, but of similar shape and also powered by liquid fuels. The operator used input from radars tracking both the target and the missile to steer it, using a radio command link. A proximity fuse would ignite the 235kg warhead. The program was cancelled in February 1945, when it was close to the production stage.

B. German Jet Production

German jets produced in 1943 for production so that for the battle of buldge the Germans gained local air supiortiy. Any aircraft getting by would be handled by the above mentioned air to air wepons.

2. Achieving the quick break down with minimal losses
The Germans would use surprise as really happened and a massive attack with Sarin gas Sarin gas :
(O-Isopropyl methylphosphonofluoridate), also called GB, is one of the most dangerous and toxic chemicals known. It belongs to a class of chemical weapons known as nerve agents, all of which are organophosphates. The G nerve agents, including tabun, sarin and soman, are all extremely toxic, but not very persistent in the environment. Pure sarin is a colorless and odorless gas, and since it is extremely volatile, and can spread quickly through the air. A lethal dose of sarin is about 0.5 milligrams; it is approximately 500 times more deadly than cyanide. History and global production of sarin. Sarin was first synthesized in 1938 by a group of German scientists researching new pesticides. Its name is derived from the names of the chemists involved in its creation: Schrader, Ambros, Rudriger, and van der Linde. A pilot plant to study the use of sarin was built in Dyernfurth. Although they produced and 10 tons of sarin, the German government decided not to use chemical weapons in artillery during World War II.
All 10 Tonnes were utilized in the attack on Allied HQ, key defence positions (Bastonge), and supply stations. The German attack drove over the Allied postitions, captured key supply depots, and achieved the objectives of splitting the Allie army.
3. Development of the New U-Boats to reduce the flow of war material from America.
The results is a captured Brit army, withdrawal of the Allied American army to Southern France, reallocation of sizeable forces to eastern Europe to fight the Red Army, and the time to utilize the new German U-boats to strangle the Allied forces in Europe in late 44 – 45.
The German anti aircraft defences / Jets on both fronts and sizeable use of Sarin against the Red army allows for a negotiated peace.

VERY VERY unlikely but my best scenario – does not account for American army left in France – A Bomb – and Red Army
 
Possible scenarios for the German forces to maximize their ability to win or be in a better position to be least successful. This is a possible scenario for the program. This is based upon the Germans
  1. Neutralizing the Allied air forces
  2. Achieving the quick break down with minimal losses
  3. Cutting the allied supply line
  4. Development of the New U-Boats to reduce the flow of war material from America.
So the plan is:
1. Neutralizing the Allied air forces this is based upon the redirection of critical technology to jet planes (no Hitler redirecting resources to Jet Bomber 262) and ground to air weapons (the tech transfer would be from V2’s)
A. Anti aircraft weapons
Henschel Hs 117 Schmetterling
Of all experimental surface-to-air missiles, this one came closest to an operational weapons system. At the end of the war it was in production, but it was never operationally used. With a length of 4.29m, it was a relatively small missile. Its shape was that of a small aircraft, with a sustainer rocket engine in its body, and two boost engines, mounted above and below its fuselage. Range was about 32km, and it could be used against targets up to 10,000m high, although in such cases guidance problems were considerable: Aiming was visual, by means of a radio command link. There were also experiments with air-drops, with the use of radar for guidance, and with proximity fuses.
Rheintochter
This was a large anti-aircraft missile, rather crude in design. It had four tail fins, six fins on the center body, and four canard control fins. It had a boost engine in the tail, and a sustainer in the front fuselage. Control was again visual aiming with a radio command link. Rheintochter III was smaller than Rheintochter I, but had better performance. The project was abandoned in December 1944.
Taifun
This was an unguided anti-aircraft weapon. It was a simple, 1.93m long, spin-stabilized rocket with a 0.5kg warhead. Taifun was accelerated to Mach 3+, and could reach altitudes up to 15000m. It was intended to fire salvos of 30 missiles. At the end of the war it was in mass production.
Wasserfall
The Wasserfall SAM was developed at Peenemüde, and was based on experience with the A-4, also known as V-2. It was smaller, but of similar shape and also powered by liquid fuels. The operator used input from radars tracking both the target and the missile to steer it, using a radio command link. A proximity fuse would ignite the 235kg warhead. The program was cancelled in February 1945, when it was close to the production stage.

B. German Jet Production

German jets produced in 1943 for production so that for the battle of buldge the Germans gained local air supiortiy. Any aircraft getting by would be handled by the above mentioned air to air wepons.

2. Achieving the quick break down with minimal losses
The Germans would use surprise as really happened and a massive attack with Sarin gas Sarin gas :
(O-Isopropyl methylphosphonofluoridate), also called GB, is one of the most dangerous and toxic chemicals known. It belongs to a class of chemical weapons known as nerve agents, all of which are organophosphates. The G nerve agents, including tabun, sarin and soman, are all extremely toxic, but not very persistent in the environment. Pure sarin is a colorless and odorless gas, and since it is extremely volatile, and can spread quickly through the air. A lethal dose of sarin is about 0.5 milligrams; it is approximately 500 times more deadly than cyanide. History and global production of sarin. Sarin was first synthesized in 1938 by a group of German scientists researching new pesticides. Its name is derived from the names of the chemists involved in its creation: Schrader, Ambros, Rudriger, and van der Linde. A pilot plant to study the use of sarin was built in Dyernfurth. Although they produced and 10 tons of sarin, the German government decided not to use chemical weapons in artillery during World War II.
All 10 Tonnes were utilized in the attack on Allied HQ, key defence positions (Bastonge), and supply stations. The German attack drove over the Allied postitions, captured key supply depots, and achieved the objectives of splitting the Allie army.
3. Development of the New U-Boats to reduce the flow of war material from America.
The results is a captured Brit army, withdrawal of the Allied American army to Southern France, reallocation of sizeable forces to eastern Europe to fight the Red Army, and the time to utilize the new German U-boats to strangle the Allied forces in Europe in late 44 – 45.
The German anti aircraft defences / Jets on both fronts and sizeable use of Sarin against the Red army allows for a negotiated peace.

VERY VERY unlikely but my best scenario – does not account for American army left in France – A Bomb – and Red Army

Agreed with all your points.

I would also add to the mix.

4. Allowing the German to operate a more flexable defence on all fronts.

I think point 4 would buy the Germany more time as well??
 

trajen777

Banned
I fully agree - using the Manstein system of flex defence and with some support against allied air units by SAM's and Jet planes this could have allowed for this flex defence as well as solwly gaining the tach air support
 
Top