Subotai vs Genghis Khan in pitched battles

Fenestella

Banned
Suppose some twist led to Subotai being recruited by the Jurchens before Genghis Khan did, and promoted to something like field marshal early on as the Mongol-Jurchen War escalated. Could Subotai's generalship lead the Jurchens to victory over Genghis Khan's army in pitched battles?
 
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Artaxerxes

Banned
Suppose some twist led to Subotai being recruited by the Jurchens before Genghis Khan did, and promoted to something like field marshal early on as the Mongol-Jurchen War escalated. Could Subotai's generalship lead the Jurchens to victory over Genghis Khan's army in pitched battles?

It depends a lot on the forces available to the Jurchens, can they match the Mongols speed? Or logistical train, or the organisation of the Mongol army?
 
Suppose some twist led to Subotai being recruited by the Jurchens before Genghis Khan did, and promoted to something like field marshal early on as the Mongol-Jurchen War escalated. Could Subotai's generalship lead the Jurchens to victory over Genghis Khan's army in pitched battles?

Without Genghis Khan Subotai would have been one more deadbeat in the Mongolian steppe.

Genghis Khan created the army, created the unity of "people of the long will" and he chose a smart brave guy and used to give him part of his army to follow his orders.
Genghis Khan taught Subotai everything, he gave him everything, without Genghis Khan Subotai would have been nothing. Like many a brave general whom genius of Genghis Khan saw and pulled out of obscurity.

Actually generalship of Subotai is somewhat overrated. For example during the famous first Western campaign he shared command with Jebe and Subutai just happened to be a lucky one to outlive his partner and reap all the fame.
Subotai is more known among Europeans because he scared them shitless during final Western campaign.

Genghis Khan was very wise as he had a bunch of generals at his disposal and he left them as a legacy to his sons and grandsons.
None of the generals was indispensable.
The political, managerial and military talent of Genghis Khan was irreplaceable.
 

Fenestella

Banned
Actually generalship of Subotai is somewhat overrated. For example during the famous first Western campaign he shared command with Jebe and Subutai just happened to be a lucky one to outlive his partner and reap all the fame.
Subotai is more known among Europeans because he scared them shitless during final Western campaign.
I knew the West wasn't worthy of your Mongol demigod and heroes, what about the East? I've been told by the Chinese that your Mongol demigod and heroes were lucky and somewhat overrated because they would be cooked had they met the Chinese superheroes such as Huo Qubing, Wei Ching, Ban Chao, Tangtaizong, who scared the shit out of the steppe warriors during their Central/Northern Asian campaigns. I'd love to hear what you have to say about that.
 

Zioneer

Banned
I knew the West wasn't worthy of your Mongol demigod and heroes, what about the East? I've been told by the Chinese that your Mongol demigod and heroes were lucky and somewhat overrated because they would be cooked had they met the Chinese superheroes such as Huo Qubing, Wei Ching, Ban Chao, Tangtaizong, who scared the shit out of the steppe warriors during their Central/Northern Asian campaigns. I'd love to hear what you have to say about that.

That seems like kind of a rude comment.
 
I knew the West wasn't worthy of your Mongol demigod and heroes, what about the East? I've been told by the Chinese that your Mongol demigod and heroes were lucky and somewhat overrated because they would be cooked had they met the Chinese superheroes such as Huo Qubing, Wei Ching, Ban Chao, Tangtaizong, who scared the shit out of the steppe warriors during their Central/Northern Asian campaigns. I'd love to hear what you have to say about that.

Try not to derail your own thread.

I imagine Genghis Khan would still have the advantage. It normally takes more than a single general to change the outcome of a conflict.
 
The mongols fought some very hard battles against the jurchens, esp those against the gates, when they do not have some vy high quality siege weapons then. The best chance that the jurchens have are probably not field battles, but defensive siege that destroy the mongil army in attrition and subotai is probably not the general for that.

Chinese superhero are probably yue fei and han xin. The way that wei ching fought destroy the economy of han itself.
 
The mongols fought some very hard battles against the jurchens, esp those against the gates, when they do not have some vy high quality siege weapons then. The best chance that the jurchens have are probably not field battles, but defensive siege that destroy the mongil army in attrition and subotai is probably not the general for that.

Chinese superhero are probably yue fei and han xin. The way that wei ching fought destroy the economy of han itself.

The ultimate superhero would be Xiang Yu.He got defeated by Han Xin true,but a lot of people still think that Xiang Yu lost partly because bad luck and that he was a lousy politician.The way how Xiang Yu repeatedly defeated armies at least ten times larger than his own made him some sort of God of War.The guy's reputation in modern China just gets pushed up to eleven--people largely see him as a man with Herculean strength and awesome military prowess.
 
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The ultimate superhero would be Xiang Yu.He got defeated by Han Xin true,but a lot of people still think that Xiang Yu lost partly because bad luck and that he was a lousy politician.The way how Xiang Yu repeatedly defeated armies at least ten times larger than his own made him some sort of God of War.The guy's reputation in modern China just gets pushed up to eleven--people largely see him as a man with Herculean strength and awesome military prowess.

You are right, xiang yu is just the chinese God of war. He is probably the best warrior commander the chinese had. But his poor talent management (just consider nearly all his lieutanant betrayed him and his father like advisor resigned). Give him an army and he will smash the opponent into pieces but he cannot be trusted as the overall commander.
 
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