Submersible Aircraft Design

Hi Everyone!

In this posting is an illustration and three-view drawing of a submersible aircraft design from Convair.

I hope someone can use this info!


Chuck

Convair Submersible Aircraft.JPG
 
Don't jets kind of need air to work? And I don't see any propellers in the design. Unless that stream of bubbles in the upper-left illustration is supposed to be where a propeller is.

Well, I think it is technically possible to make an aquatic jet. . .
 
Submersible Aircraft

I'm not sure how this vehicle would have been propelled underwater, but as this was an actual design concept from Convair (which later became General Dynamics) there should be some reference materials on this, so I'll see what I can find.

Chuck
 

Cook

Banned
The drag from the wings and tail are going to be enormous!

Why in the hell would you bother? It isn’t like you are going to be able to go deep.
 
Hmm, look what I found

"This drawing by the Convair Division of General Dynamics Corp. In San Diego, Calif., shows how a proposed combination seaplane-submarine would appear under water. The company is studying the feasibility of such a craft under a $36,000 Navy contract. The craft would be submerged by flooding of the wing, tail and hull compartments. It would travel 5 miles an hour under water, powered by batteries."

(http://www.waterufo.net/flyingsubs/NavyFlyingSubHtml1.htm)
 
Stupid question: disregarding all the other implausible elements of the design, how would you design an ejection system that would function both in air and underwater?
 
Well, I think it is technically possible to make an aquatic jet. . .

Sure it is, in the sense that a "jet" is a plume of fast-moving fluid of some kind. Modern submarines often use a shrouded-intake pumpjet---it's quieter for one thing.

But of course when we say "jet" we generally mean a bit more than just fluid flowing through a duct...

Mix water with fuel and then combust it?

And in that sense, of course not!

A liquid by definition doesn't compress much, and therefore doesn't expand much, and therefore any chemical reactions you can manage to arrange for in water (which is scanty of free oxygen compared to the air anyway) would be pretty futile, unless you can release so much heat you actually flash the water into gas (or plasma!) that expands anyway despite the pressure at some depth. But such reactions, if we can imagine some way of achieving them (bombard the water with high-energy fission or fusion product particles? Carry pure sodium as "fuel"? Black magic?) would make one noisy, spectacular process and probably be inefficient as hell too. So a "jet" in the sense of actually using the fluid as a part of the source of the energy-producing reaction, which is what an atmospheric turbojet does, is silly in water.

If the desired speed is just 5 knots, I suppose that batteries supplying electricity to the turbojet's starter motor can make the compressors of the jet engine into a sort of pumpjet, if you can bypass the turbine and decouple it mechanically to minimize drag. Now you've got seawater running right through ducts meant for hypersonic, heated airflow; it's hard to believe the same duct and blade shapes can serve well for hot supersonic air and cold salty water flowing at 3 meters per second or so, but maybe a very clever fluid dynamicist can figure that part out. And a good materials science team can figure out how to employ materials that survive and serve well in both environments. And can take the insane thermal transition from the white heat of a jet combustion chamber to the near-freezing temperature of sea water in just a half second or so without bursting, then clear all that salty water out of the entire duct so the turbojet engine can start again without say being thrown centrifugally out of whack by clinging seawater droplets, suffering corrosion, jamming by bits of seaweed and krill and whatnot...:eek:

A somewhat less clever but more overall competent fluid dynamicist, or any sort of expert whatsoever, seeing this design, would blanch in horror and (assuming there is some good reason to want a craft with this combination of capabilities!) come back with designs that firmly shut the jet pods to all water flow; probably one would reject the usual modern practice of external jets and instead revert to a more British 1940s/50s approach of embedding the jet engines in the wings or fuselage, so that when their intakes and exhausts are sealed shut they don't leave a hydrodynamic exterior trace.

Then add a separate electrically driven pumpjet, presumably on the tail tip. Or just have a water prop of some kind, folded against the tail cone (or nose cone) like an umbrella when airborne. Or even retracted into the hull and only deployed when submerged.

The drag from the wings and tail are going to be enormous!

Yes it will!
Why in the hell would you bother? It isn’t like you are going to be able to go deep.

That's the multi-billion dollar contract question of course. Whiskey? Tango? Foxtrot!

My best guess is, it's a strategic deterrent concept analogous to a nuclear missile submarine. In peacetime it lurks under the sea when on station, in an unknown location, ready to pop up and fly as a bomber to the target if something goes horribly wrong (or wickedly right) in the world of diplomacy.

And when put that way, the silliness of the concept (at least in a world where submarine-launched ballistic missiles are a viable concept) is pretty plain.

Perhaps someone can come up with some more sensible scenario for a submersible airplane of any kind?

As you say, it's bad enough to submerge an airplane at all, but trying to proof even part of the fuselage against the pressures at any depth would add a huge dead weight to any design, useless except in that case.

So the question of why the heck anyone needs this kind of capability is a rather burning one as it governs the tradeoffs one is willing to make.

Throw enough money at it and might be doable--not like this, having the jets in external pods like that is just stupid in this case. But it looks like more of a stunt than a solution!

Stupid question: disregarding all the other implausible elements of the design, how would you design an ejection system that would function both in air and underwater?

Um, assuming that some need exists to require such a bizarre craft at all, it could be that ejection is just not a priority of design?

The earlier jet bombers had no or only partial provision for crew "ejection" while airborne--some crew if not all were often expected to simply open a hatch and jump out, near-sonic speed be damned. Similarly if you are submerged and have to abandon ship, I suppose down to a certain depth (probably well below anything any half-sane aircraft could dive to without being crushed anyway) you just put on some scuba gear and open the same hatch, and swim for the surface.

Vice versa I suppose if there are fancy ejection pods for near-sonic speed ejection while airborne, these can be designed to also be slowly ejected into water and bear the crew up to the surface, mainly by bobbing up like a cork.
 

Cook

Banned
Stupid question: disregarding all the other implausible elements of the design, how would you design an ejection system that would function both in air and underwater?



You wouldn’t; it’d be like cannoning into solid concrete.

The ejection seats explosive charges would have to be set to disable when it is submerged.

Anyone else notice that the illustration and the plans don’t match, the nose and wings are different? The nose is really different!
 
Obviously, the plans and illustrations were from different phases, or different concurrent concepts, of approaches to a concept that actually never did gel into a definite project.

Convair had a general interest in seaplanes that could serve as high-performance warplanes as well in the 40s and 50s. They designed (and actually flew a few prototypes of) a delta-winged jet fighter seaplane that was supposed to be supersonic (and might have been, if the engines it was designed for had been available--also had the project continued doubtless it would have been redesigned for the Whitcomb Area Rule as the concurrent landplane F-102 was) and took off and landed using a retractable hydroplane--basically a water ski. I can't see the OP illustrations as I write but I think one shows such a ski; if not there, see the extra pics Asnys offered. There too you can see that each illustration is for a different plane! The one on the left there, showing the thing submerged, looks most like what a realistic approach would look like.

Note that except for that one, most have pretty traditional flying boat hull bottoms, and that is a major source of drag both in the air and submerged. Drag is not only costly of power and hence slows the thing down and reduces submerged range, it also would tend to make the craft noisier at any speed. Since the only use I can imagine for submerging an airplane is to hide it for strategic reasons, noise very much defeats the purpose!

So if I were to design such a thing, I'd start with making the hull a good streamlined shape. At speeds well below sonic speed, the fluid dynamics of air are pretty similar to those of water so the same fuselage shape should serve well, at least until one gets up to speeds close to sound. The only thing wrong with the submerged picture Asnys pointed to is that the nose is pointed--good, indeed probably necessary, if it is supersonic, but otherwise not a good idea; a pointed nose is not ideal in the realm of moderate-speed, "incompressible" flow, and probably a source of noise. But at least that illustration shows a fuselage with some serious address of issues of pressure, such as minimal windows, and no visible air intake ducts--presumably they are sealed.

Then, to prevent having to make a flying-boat style underbody, I'd rely on retractable submerged hydrofoils for takeoff and landing; they'd lift the hull clear of the water completely during takeoff runs. Such an approach might allow very high takeoff speeds, which would in turn allow a smaller wing hence less parasitic drag from it while submerged.

The question of how deep you have to go governs how heavy the pressure hull has to be. I guess they don't go very deep, just deep enough to hide from observers above the surface, and rely on keeping quiet to avoid acoustic detection.

Still, go down just 100 meters and you are facing 10 atmospheres of overpressure! The consolation prize is, if you can design a pressure hull to keep the sea from crushing the crew when submerged, presumably the problem of keeping pressure in during high-altitude airborne operations is taken care of as well.

Retractable wings--well, remember that mechanisms to do that are kind of heavy, and openings along the side to take the wings in would tend to compromise the water flow anyway--might be better to just leave the wings in place. Room has to be made in the hull for the wings retracted; now the volume of the wings can't be flooded.

Well I wanted the wings made smaller anyway!
 
Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow features not only underwater airplanes, but Angelina Jolie. Far more realistic than the Convair proposal. Imagine parasite drag caused by real parasites.
 
Stupid question: disregarding all the other implausible elements of the design, how would you design an ejection system that would function both in air and underwater?

Someone did eject underwater once. It was a Westland Wyvern turbo prop strike aircraft that flamed out on the catapult. The pilot had to eject under water after the carrier HMS Albion had cut his plane in two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Wyvern

I definitely think the Convair team had been drinking the anti freeze when they drew that one up.
 
During the 50's there was a lot of interest in Submersibles including plans to make entire Battle Groups Submersible.
 
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