Not irrelevant, they are a large wealthy industrialised regional power with considerable mineral resources. And could act as a major arms supplier. Nor will European powers wish to see the US deciding that it needs to be more relevant. I think there would be a lot of concern about not directly confronting or alienating the USA but not perceived need to kowtow or tiptoe around either. And the UK won't be heavily indebted to her or Germany strategically dependent on her TTL.

ITTL they won't have had the benefit of being the "Arsenal of Democracy" so their industrial capacity will be far smaller. Other countries will buy her wheat, minerals, and bullets, but when they want high tech (high value add) items they will go to Europe. America appears to be far more inward looking than OTL and has few interests outside the US, apart from South America and the Philippines. If events follow OTL then the US should be ending it's involvement in the Philippines about now so its external military commitments will be declining. In South America, the Americans have suffered from the depredations of the Abwehr pre-war, and Germany has built up significant economic muscle there. I doubt anyone will confront the US because it has no involvement in Europe, Asia or Africa. Likewise no one is going to deliberately alienate the US, they are going to politely listen, try to keep them involved, but their opinions will carry very little weight.
 
ITTL they won't have had the benefit of being the "Arsenal of Democracy" so their industrial capacity will be far smaller.
They do have the advantage of a huge domestic market though and were the largest industrial economy 1939 OTL never mind 1945. They are going to be relatively weaker and not culturally dominant yes -Japan will likely be industrialising sooner, likewise Korea and China is going to remain a functional developing part of the world economy. And Russia will continue to modernise and industrialise with a proper market economy, likewise Eastern Europe and the Balkans. So no massive boom in the fifties and sixties.
Britain aren't bust and France isn't recovering from ravages of occupation. Both will decolonise in a slower and more orderly fashion retaining a larger economic interest in their former colonies. Both will also have lost less skilled personnel in TTL's European War and have more competitive pressure to keep modernising and developing their economies. Even without Benny the Moose, Italy's economy should be growing and industrialisation developing too. So it's not going to be an "American century" but America isn't going to be irrelevant. Mickey Mouse, Coca-cola, Hollywood, Spam, Mars Bars (Mars and Milky Way were already being produced and on sale in the UK 1930s OTL) are all still going to be big -just not as dominant as OTL without the GIs to "evangelise" in Europe and Japan/Korea TTL.
But don't confuse "less relevant" with "not relevant".
 
On the plus side, with keener international competition and more imports their industrial economy isn't likely to run out of steam quite as much in the late sixties and early seventies as it did OTL. There won't be room for complacency and entrenched corporate bureaucracy to accrete in the fat years. The same has even more relevance for the British economy where these tendencies were far worse. TTL there won't be an Indian summer of huge pent up demand and all your competitors wrecked by the war.
 
I just get it ITTL we don´t get Fanta®, we still get Coca-cola® and Maybe Sprite®, but not really Fanta so how i gonna drink Spezial and Fanshop (Radler with Fanta), truly a dark timeline

That Being Said. How do you think is gonna develop the USA Interventionist attitude in respect to Latin America ITTL?
We don´t have a red Scare anymore (kaput USSR) And the Socialism is a valid politic ideology of one of the more powerful countries in the world, The German Empire, unless i read the timeline wrong.
Germany Cultural,industrial and Commercial presence is strong in the Southern Cone (Argentina, Brazilian South, Chile and Uruguay) and in the Case of Chile The Army is modeled on the Prussian Ideals (
) and i don´t see any reason to this be changed, less now that Germany win 2 world wars.

Other point to be take in consideration, that the Southern cone plus Brasil have long list of conflict against the USA interventionism in L.A.

There where case of Chilean government using gunboat diplomacy Against USA (Source of the Claim http://www.ijnhonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/pdf_tromben_english.pdf) and a historical strong German migrant population (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Chileans)

Argentina historical Aligned with the British Empire in the 19 and early 20 century and have strong migrant population of German origin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Argentine)

Uruguay and his historical philosophical posture and influence, plus a really ambivalente relations with USA, both long live democracy and liberal, but after the USA support of his dictatorship the relation get cold (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Veins_of_Latin_America)

Brasil, well Brasil have a admiration to the USA as country, but consider itself as an equal not as another country to be "influenced" by the USA policy respect to L.A., remember they send fighting Army to the European Theater in OTTL and participated as belligerent in the WWI
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Expeditionary_Force) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_during_World_War_I)

Could be a really interesting scenario where European powers using his influence to make the mentioned countries as counter balance to the more interventionist ideas from USA, in special respect to central america, the Caribbean and the poor Mexico
 
Part 41, Chapter 527
Chapter Five Hundred Twenty-Seven


18th February 1946

Berlin

The session had been interesting for what Tangeman had gotten Kat to talk about. Peter was starting to think that there might just be an ordinary woman underneath the all the anger and murderous abilities.

Kat had spoken at length about her ethical quandary regarding the girls under her care. Most of them were accomplished pick pockets and she didn’t know if that was the sort of behavior that she should encourage. Was it wrong if done in the service of the State? It was a stupid thing to be discussing because Peter knew that Kat had been an effective house breaker before her training had started, great lengths had been made to improve upon that. The State in this case was perfectly happy so long as the job was done, and they didn’t care how. Doctor Tangeman grew tired of her avoidance first and brought the topic back around to something that Kat had mentioned the week before in passing.

“Last week you mentioned that you’d been having odd dreams and how that had thrown your entire week off” Tangeman said, “You didn’t elaborate.”

“I had one odd dream” Kat said, “And its not as if that means anything.”

“Are you ready to tell us what it was about?” Tangeman asked.

“You can’t just let that go?” Kat replied.

“There are a lot of theories about the importance of dreams” Tangeman said, “The subconscious at work or the way your mind processes information.”

Kat sighed, she knew that once Doctor Tangeman got after her about something then it would be brought up until she was prepared to talk about it. “It’s embarrassing” She said, “And personal.”

“Would it help if Doctor Holz left?” Tangeman asked.

This was something that had come up a few times in the past. There were some things that Kat was not comfortable talking with Peter about no matter how much she might trust him personally. When there had been several of the male patients who had not been comfortable talking about some of the things that had happened in front of Tangeman the same thing had applied.

“If he could” Kat said.

Peter didn’t object. This was simply how they had to do things if they wanted Kat to trust them implicitly. Doctor Tangeman would tell him the big picture version of what got said later. He simply got up and walked out to the waiting room.

“Hey Doc” One of the patients said in greeting. The man was cheerful, he was also three sheets to the wind even though it was only early afternoon. Peter had to remind himself that this was a victory of sorts.

“I see you made it in today Max” Peter said as he sat down in one of the empty chairs.

“Mama didn’t exactly give me a choice” Max said, “She said either I start coming in regularly or I find somewhere else to live.”

Peter couldn’t blame her, she had already lost one son to the Russian Front. She was not about to watch as it became two.

“For whatever reason, its good you’re here” Peter said. He hated watching the spiral that people like Max endured before they either died or found some way to function.

“Why’re you out here?” Max asked.

“A patient had something she wanted to talk about” Peter said, “Just not necessarily with me.”

“The pretty redhead?” Max asked. Peter didn’t answer the question. The problem that they had discovered with the study was that there were only a few women and they tended to stick out.

A short while later. Kat walked past, she was struggling to keep the expression on her face blank. She didn’t say a word and she seemed sort of flustered.

“I need to talk to my colleague” Peter said, “But I’ll be back with you in a moment.”

“Sure thing, Doctor Holz” Max said, “Won’t go nowhere.” As if Max was in a state to leave.

Peter found Doctor Tangeman in the office, clearly bemused.

“If you could tell me what that was about” Peter said, “Within reason.”

“The men who come through here are afraid to say that they might have had a situation they feel guilty about in front of me, usually” Tangeman replied, “Afraid that I might call them out for past bad behavior.”

It was one of the reasons why Peter had come to hate war. Beyond the killing and maiming that went on, everybody involved was brutalized in some way on and off the battlefield. One of the tragedies was that hundreds of thousands of civilians had found themselves in those situations where the survival rations in a soldier’s pack might be the difference between life and death. Beyond those whose first instinct would have been to take advantage, there were those who succumbed to peer pressure or didn’t realize what they were doing. For a number of the men who Peter dealt with that was a source of guilt and shame when they came home.

“Yes, but it’s hardly our place to judge” Peter said, wondering where she was going.

“That seems so much easier than what I just had to listen to and then explain” Tangeman said, “The thing we’ve observed, with how Katherine walls off things she can’t deal with and that resulting in those things manifesting in strange ways.”

“I see” Peter said, “What you are saying is that this dream was her subconscious playing tricks on her,”

“You could call it that” Tangeman said, “The dream she mentioned has been recurring and let’s just say it relates to her own personal desires.”

“I didn’t realize she had those” Peter said, “That she kept that part of herself bottled up.”

“Much as she might pretend she does, it doesn’t work that way” Tangeman replied, “I told her that it was all perfectly natural.”

No wonder Kat had been flustered. There was a very fine line between perfectly natural and things she couldn’t handle.
 
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Except for one important detail, the person at the top of the pyramid of the Luftwaffe would need to understand the entire mission of the service branch, not just the 10 to 20% that is most visible. That is the odd little detail of Airforces, the vast majority of personnel don't work aboard aircraft. For every pilot there are 8 or 9 people who might never set foot aboard an aircraft. Mechanics, radar and radio operators, base security (which is the actual job of the Fallschermjager during peacetime and that is about to get a lot more important), air traffic controllers, dozens of different types of specialists and logistics experts just to name a few.

IMHO a "pilots only" orientation of the Luftwaffe would be a mistake, leading to a "if you ain't rated you ain't shit" attitude. This can lead to a stratification with the "fighter mafia" and "bomber barons" at the top; other pilots in the middle (transports ("trash haulers"), refuelers ("gas passers"), ground attack ("mud movers"), ELINT, SAR, weather, recon,and the like); and the vast majority at the bottom (maintainers, weather guessers, photo interpreters, radio and radar operators, fuellers, et cetera. AFAIK the Luftwaffe didn't limit
pilots to only commissioned officers, which tends to soften the edges. Emil Von Holz as the head of the Luftwaffe will keep things under control.

On another topic, I think the Fallschermjäger and the SKA need to remain part of the Luftwaffe because they and their transport aircraft need to remain as part of the same organization just as the Seebatalions and MA need to remain a part of the KLM.
 
Part 41, Chapter 528
Chapter Five Hundred Twenty-Eight


1st March 1946

Wilhelmshaven, Jade Bight

For the SMS Rhineland this was a homecoming in more ways than one. She was one of the first ships to built in the shipyards here after they were expanded a decade earlier. The SMS Brandenburg had remained on station in Taiwan as the flagship of the Pacific Squadron. The Preussen and Rhineland had been ordered back to Germany for refit. That meant a year or more ashore, but the work would be just as hard as if they were at sea.

For Arend Neumann along with the rest of the crews of the two battleships it was a bit of a bittersweet experience as they pulled into the harbor. The Bayern and the Württemberg had arrived a week earlier, and the Rhineland steamed right past them. They were sitting at anchor in the harbor alongside their sister, the SMS Baden with only small caretaker crews aboard. Proud ships with long histories, but time had caught up with them. Their crews had known from the time they left the Pacific that the voyage home would be the last for the Bayern Class. They already looked decrepit and neglected with only had being towed to the breakers ahead of them. There had been an attempt to have the SMS Bayern preserved as a museum ship that had not worked out.

It was however expected to be a wild night in Wilhelmshaven. While it would not be the wild euphoria that they had all heard about on the nights that the victories in the major theaters of war announced, the return of a large portion of the battlefleet was always a big deal.

“Think Ma’s down there somewhere?” Christoph asked.

“Can’t tell” Arend said as he looked down at the teeming crowd on the mooring there to greet them.

“You got plans for the night” Arend asked Christoph.

“Going out with the others” Christoph replied, “Raise some Hell.”

“Don’t do anything I wouldn’t do” Arend said.

“That ain’t much Pops” Christoph said with a grin.

“Yeah, whatever” Arend said returning the grin, “Have fun smartass.”


Lake Baikal Region, Russia

Jost had forgotten just how boring Siberia was. Last year it had been thousands of kilometers of trees. Now it was the same thing except it was covered in snow which gave everything an odd glow as it reflected the starlight. That wasn’t helping matters and it was a reminder that they were very far from civilization. Not being able to sleep he was staring out the window of the train with Reisser laying on the bench seat beside him with his head resting on Jost’s knee.

That was the result of the Government selling off most of their gear to the Koreans. That meant that other than personal gear, rucksacks and rifles nothing else was coming back with them. The result was that there was plenty of room in the number of cars normally allotted to a Mechanized Regiment. The 140th was finally going home to an uncertain future. Word had reached them in Korea of the blood bath that was slowly unfolding within the Heer. There was a massive shake up going on. At its core the 140th was the same Regiment that had taken Souville Hill a generation earlier with a history that extended back to before the Austro-Prussian War. Apparently the 2nd Army Corps and the 4th Division by extension were to be restructured and modernized. Whatever that even meant.

Jost had a very simple philosophy regarding whatever stupidity was brewing in Wunsdorf. No matter what they did they would always need someone who the frightened the Soldaten more than the enemy. So long as that remained true then Jost would remain gainfully employed.


Seattle, Washington State

Nancy was reading the latest letter from Kat while she should have been paying attention to the lecture. It was a rainy grey afternoon and she had noticed that the some of the trees suddenly had blooms on them. After that her mind had been filled with thoughts of spring break, which was coming up next month. Beatrice was talking about going home, in her case that was the North-East Portland down south in Oregon. Nancy had made no plans, she’d probably just go home.

In the letter Kat had gone into detail about an incident that she had found embarrassing.

…And then Doctor Tangeman wouldn’t let it go. Kat had written. She then proceeded to lecture me on what my options were to explore that part of myself.

Nancy didn’t know if she found that situation mortifying or hilarious. Apparently, Kat had told this woman who had been trying to help her sort things out about an unsettling dream that she’d had. Kat had then received a lecture about how she needed to find a healthy way of expressing certain things rather than repressing them. Nancy didn’t entirely disagree with that. She remembered Kat’s description of Erma Tangeman as someone Kat both admired, but was frequently appalled by her direct way of dealing with uncomfortable issues. In the letter Kat had talked around exactly what she had dreamed about but anyone who knew Kat had a pretty good idea of what might have disturbed her like that.

Kat’s complaints about this were not what interested Nancy. It was the content of the lecture that Doctor Tangeman had given Kat. That conversation would have been unlikely to have occurred on this side of the Atlantic. There were startling conclusions that Nancy was starting to reach from the bits and pieces of information that Kat provided in her letters. Was it possible that in spite of everything that Nancy had been told her whole life that her friend in Germany had a greater degree of personal freedom than she did?
 
Kat’s complaints about this were not what interested Nancy. It was the content of the lecture that Doctor Tangeman had given Kat. That conversation would have been unlikely to have occurred on this side of the Atlantic. There were startling conclusions that Nancy was starting to reach from the bits and pieces of information that Kat provided in her letters. Was it possible that in spite of everything that Nancy had been told her whole life that her friend in Germany had a greater degree of personal freedom than she did?

In a country with the Comstock laws and dominated by Mrs. Grundy Nancy is certainly correct.
 
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CThere were startling conclusions that Nancy was starting to reach from the bits and pieces of information that Kat provided in her letters. Was it possible that in spite of everything that Nancy had been told her whole life that her friend in Germany had a greater degree of personal freedom than she did?

The freedom in the USA in the prewar era--and that's where the USA seems to be, socially--was for wealthy white protestant males, and even then, very limited by modern standards. Anyone else had much reduced freedom, depending on perceived religion, race, gender, wealth, and more. (Which flavor of protestantism mattered, too. Conformity was expected. I wonder if Nancy will reply, asking about the level of freedom women have in Germany. And--what will the people reading her mail think about what she writes? Kat has to expect that the mail is being read by multiple people; will she think to mention that to Nancy? Perhaps put in a letter that the FBI is quite likely to open anything bound to or from Germany?
 

FBKampfer

Banned
Peabody-Martini's Idea sketch book:

"What if the United States were kinda shitty and opportunistic, but everywhere else mostly got a little bit, or really really really amazingly better".

*circle, underline*
*exclamation point*
*scratch and sniff sticker*
 
That's a bit harsh isn't it?

OTL America, through a weird set of circumstances found itself as "the liberator of the world" and many attitudes were a response to that and the experiences of normal Americans were shaped strongly by that.
Not having Nazi Germany to point at means that things like Eugenics and anti-Semitism haven't been as thoroughly discredited yet, so the Comstock laws, for example, which Nazi Germany also had the equivalence of haven't been discredited yet either. Hence why they're still around.

Not something you expect to write ever, but the Nazis had positive effect on the world. And they did so by providing the perfect negative example.
 
The freedom in the USA in the prewar era--and that's where the USA seems to be, socially--was for wealthy white protestant males, and even then, very limited by modern standards. Anyone else had much reduced freedom, depending on perceived religion, race, gender, wealth, and more. (Which flavor of protestantism mattered, too. Conformity was expected. I wonder if Nancy will reply, asking about the level of freedom women have in Germany. And--what will the people reading her mail think about what she writes? Kat has to expect that the mail is being read by multiple people; will she think to mention that to Nancy? Perhaps put in a letter that the FBI is quite likely to open anything bound to or from Germany?

The FBI and the US Intelligence Services (whoever they are at the moment) are highly likely to read anything to or from Kat.

Perhaps Nancy could have a semester abroad.

Now that would be interesting! It'd look good on her college transcript. Maybe she could go to Gerta's wedding. Of course, Kat might initiate her into the Sisterhood of the Kerambit (around whom no man’s manhood is safe*). One definite result would be increased attention from the FBI and US Intelligence Services.

* Sorry, couldn't resist adding that.
 
Are there any africans or mideasterners living in Germany? I remember an update with Peter talking about an african nurse for Hitler.
 
The FBI and the US Intelligence Services (whoever they are at the moment) are highly likely to read anything to or from Kat.



Now that would be interesting! It'd look good on her college transcript. Maybe she could go to Gerta's wedding. Of course, Kat might initiate her into the Sisterhood of the Kerambit (around whom no man’s manhood is safe*). One definite result would be increased attention from the FBI and US Intelligence Services.

* Sorry, couldn't resist adding that.

The FBI was even looser with people's rights then than now. I'm wondering if Kat might add a note to that effect in her letter...something like, "Just a reminder--the FBI probably is reading everything you write to me--and probably anything you write to anyone else..."
 
The FBI was even looser with people's rights then than now. I'm wondering if Kat might add a note to that effect in her letter...something like, "Just a reminder--the FBI probably is reading everything you write to me--and probably anything you write to anyone else..."

Which will probably be scratched out, with a note in a different hand "Your information is incorrect. The FBI does not read other people's mail"
 
The FBI was even looser with people's rights then than now. I'm wondering if Kat might add a note to that effect in her letter...something like, "Just a reminder--the FBI probably is reading everything you write to me--and probably anything you write to anyone else..."

Something that direct might get "lost in the mail". Or delivered, but having been reduced to confetti.
 
Actually, Nancy's safe while the FBI is Abwehr's American subsidiary. She's extremely vulnerable when the inevitable "Kraut Scare" happens after the extent of German penetration of the American government and industry comes to light.
 
Actually, Nancy's safe while the FBI is Abwehr's American subsidiary. She's extremely vulnerable when the inevitable "Kraut Scare" happens after the extent of German penetration of the American government and industry comes to light.

A good point. People will be understandably upset if they find out that their entire intelligence and counter-intelligence department has been compromised. If Hoover does something like a tell-all before blowing his brains out, or disappearing.
 
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