Stupid Luck and Happenstance, Thread III

[Swooper]

Just by listening to the radio the American Special Forces are picking up a lot of valuable information about the tactics the Germans are using all they need to do is to have the imagination to incorporate it in to their training.

Not really. Not at all, actually. No one should be able to understand the meaning of any German transmission (or Polish, for that matter), other than the person/unit (or that unit's parent) to which it was addressed.

This whole radio thing doesn't make sense to an old US Marine Grunt - a combat infantryman. In '68 the radio communications between the various USMC units (Companies, Battalions & Regiments, right up to the CMC's office), would be encrypted, often using one-off code pads. So, I am sure that ITTL, the Germans would be doing at least something similar.

Then again, the Germans have always been technologically adept, so they could possibly have early digital communications, in which case there is no one-off pad or laborious encoding into code groups because doing so isn't necessary anymore. With a possible "early" (for OTL) digital signal encryption, there'd be nothing for the 1st SFG - or anyone without the ever-changing encryption key - to listen to except for a bunch of static.

Even without digital encryption, military communications are deliberately designed to be hard to decipher. Have you ever listened to an actual military radio operator? "4 clicks Yellow to Waypoint 73, Green to Objective Delta." Doesn't make much sense, does it? But, It Does, the message has just been encrypted. It could mean that someone is 4 clicks (kilometers) N/S/E/W of "Waypoint 73" which is a specific Lat/Long. location...perhaps. Or Not.

"Green to Objective Delta" Does that mean it's safe (green) for someone to go to to a location ("objective delta"?) already known to be clear? Does any of it make sense? NO? Good, it's not supposed to make sense! It's in code! Which is why Jonny & 1st SFG shouldn't be able to make heads-nor-tails of whatever radio signal(s) they might be able to catch and quickly translate from Deutsch. Besides that, atmospheric skipping is an unreliable method of radio communitcation interceptions.

Additionally, the US military's 1970's-era "smaller" intra-squad/intra-platoon/intra-company backpack radios that I was most familiar with often don't have wavelengths & the carrying power to bounce off the ionisphere to be picked up thousands of miles away. Warsaw, Poland to Ft. Drum in the USA is something like 4,300 miles. The Germans are almost certainly as aware, if not more aware, of radio skip and the need to design their radio equipment to prevent it. Hell, even in the mid-70's, it still could be difficult to pick up, or get picked up by, radios sometimes only several miles apart ... maybe there's a ridge between this one & that one, or there's a radio signal "shadow" of some sort.

Just sayin'.

 

[Peabody-Martini]

Not really. Not at all, actually. No one should be able to understand the meaning of any German transmission (or Polish, for that matter), other than the person/unit (or that unit's parent) to which it was addressed.

This whole radio thing doesn't make sense to an old US Marine Grunt - a combat infantryman. In '68 the radio communications between the various USMC units (Companies, Battalions & Regiments, right up to the CMC's office), would be encrypted, often using one-off code pads. So, I am sure that ITTL, the Germans would be doing at least something similar.

Then again, the Germans have always been technologically adept, so they could possibly have early digital communications, in which case there is no one-off pad or laborious encoding into code groups because doing so isn't necessary anymore. With a possible "early" (for OTL) digital signal encryption, there'd be nothing for the 1st SFG - or anyone without the ever-changing encryption key - to listen to except for a bunch of static.

Even without digital encryption, military communications are deliberately designed to be hard to decipher. Have you ever listened to an actual military radio operator? "4 clicks Yellow to Waypoint 73, Green to Objective Delta." Doesn't make much sense, does it? But, It Does, the message has just been encrypted. It could mean that someone is 4 clicks (kilometers) N/S/E/W of "Waypoint 73" which is a specific Lat/Long. location...perhaps. Or Not.

"Green to Objective Delta" Does that mean it's safe (green) for someone to go to to a location ("objective delta"?) already known to be clear? Does any of it make sense? NO? Good, it's not supposed to make sense! It's in code! Which is why Jonny & 1st SFG shouldn't be able to make heads-nor-tails of whatever radio signal(s) they might be able to catch and quickly translate from Deutsch. Besides that, atmospheric skipping is an unreliable method of radio communitcation interceptions.

Additionally, the US military's 1970's-era "smaller" intra-squad/intra-platoon/intra-company backpack radios that I was most familiar with often don't have wavelengths & the carrying power to bounce off the ionisphere to be picked up thousands of miles away. Warsaw, Poland to Ft. Drum in the USA is something like 4,300 miles. The Germans are almost certainly as aware, if not more aware, of radio skip and the need to design their radio equipment to prevent it. Hell, even in the mid-70's, it still could be difficult to pick up, or get picked up by, radios sometimes only several miles apart ... maybe there's a ridge between this one & that one, or there's a radio signal "shadow" of some sort.

Just sayin'.

The way that the Green Beret are eavesdropping on the tactical network of the German Army, even from thousands of miles away is based upon real incidents that occurred during the same time period when it was discovered that Russian Military Intelligence was listening in on American radio transmissions in Vietnam from the Russian Far East. The Russians passing the intelligence gathered was passed on NVA forces which resulted in several unfortunate incidents for the US Army and Marine Corps in South Vietnam. The fact that the US NSA is involved at this point is hardly a surprise. The Tactical Network being largely in the clear, while the Command Networks are heavily encrypted is also fairly typical for the era. The equipment needed to do the coding and decoding being still too heavy and cumbersome for general field use.

Also remember that the Green Beret has worked closely with the KSK and the 7th Panzer Recon ITTL a couple different times.

 

[Peabody-Martini]

Chapter One Thousand Eight Hundred Sixty-Nine



10th August 1968

Opacz Mała, Poland

They had been ordered to fall in due to General von Mischner conducting an inspection tour ahead of the final push to get into Warsaw. To the disappointment of the Squad, they had been ordered to stand down earlier that day and had watched on the outskirts of Warsaw as the rest of the Division prepared for the final push. It came as a bit of a surprise when Christian had been ordered up front. At first, he figured that he must have done something wrong. Then the General’s Aide started reading aloud the dispatches that were being sent to the Reichstag that related to Christian and the rest of his Squad.

It was about how he, Unteroffizer Christian Weise as acting leader of Infanterie-Truppe Nr. 41, 7. Aufklärungsbataillon, had led the advance of the 4th Panzer Division of the 2nd Army Corps, pushing ahead through nearly four hundred kilometers of hostile territory. This included the destruction of half dozen armored vehicles of various types and emerging victorious after engaging in frequent clashes with the Polish Army. This had resulted in Christian getting the simultaneous awarding of the Iron Cross, 1st, and 2nd Class as well as the meritorious promotion to Unteroffizer. Because he was being recognized individually in the dispatch, Christian was to be awarded the prestigious Federal Merit Cross in gold.

As Christian heard the polite applause, he had thought that they had gotten a detail wrong at first, that he was Gefreiter. Then he realized what meritorious promotion meant, that he had been given an advancement that would have otherwise taken him years to achieve. The rest of the Squad had been given various awards that reflected the roles that they had played. Still, despite all of that Christian was still a bit annoyed that his Squad had not led the way into Warsaw itself, it was almost as if someone was already doing that before they had arrived.



Warsaw, Poland

Mieczysławm Moczar was already in a foul mood. Over the prior weeks, anything that could possibly go wrong had and he got to be the Premiere who oversaw this disaster. The Government of National Unity that had formed after the death of Stanisław Mikołajczyk had turned into a farce as it seemed like every time they got word from the front there was a bit less of a nation to keep united. None of this was helped by the Defense Minister, Wojciech Jaruzelski, who was filling everyone’s ears with happy talk about how the Army was holding the line against the Germans, while continually trying to set Moczar up to take the fall every time the Army was pushed back. Now, the German Army along with their Bohemian Allies were at the gates of Warsaw itself and the Government basically acting like if this crisis called for urgent debate. Moczar would have considered machinegunning the whole lot of them if he didn’t know what was in store for them. Word was that the General commanding the German forces had put Karol Wojtyla in charge of managing the occupation. As Interior Minister, Moczar had been warned about certain people and the retired General was high on that list. Wojtyla was said to be little more than criminal who had spent his career in the German Army milking whatever position he had for everything it was worth. Moczar knew that the Wojtyla would corrupt the Parliament and anyone who refused to go along with it was likely to be liquidated.

It was comedy of the blackest sort and Moczar had no intention of sticking around to see the punchline. What was left of the Polish Army had been ordered to retreat east to the Belarusian Frontier near where it met the border with Ukraine. Once there they would come up with a plan for retaking the country. Moczar had already executed his plan to have most the State Treasury moved to a safe location months earlier. The documents in his briefcase spelled that out and would ensure that Poland still had a future when they finally managed to chase the Germans out. Walking towards the door of his office, Moczar with his briefcase in one hand and his suitcase in the other. He was annoyed that his hands were full, and he had to put down the suitcase. Normally, his personal secretary would have opened the door, but he had seen less and less of her over the prior weeks. That was why it had come as no surprise when no one had responded when he had called out on the intercom.

When Moczar got the door open, he looked down to grab his suitcase only to look up to find himself staring down the barrels of a dozen K44k carbine rifles. A part of his mind was amazed that he was able to recognize that little detail. That meant that these were paratroopers who had somehow entered the city without alerting its defenders and had taken over this building with was supposed to be the most heavily defended in Poland.

“Exactly where do you think you are going Minister?” A woman with red hair asked and the instant Moczar saw her he knew that he was completely screwed. “We have a great deal to discuss before you are formally arrested.”

She grabbed the briefcase out of his hand before he even thought to resist. It was locked but it only took her a few seconds to pry it open.

“I don’t know what you are playing at Lady Katherine but…” Moczar started to say only one of her paratroops jam the butt of his carbine into his back.

“There will be a reckoning with the Swiss one day” Katherine said looking at the documents. “If their banking privacy laws were not so useful it would have already happened. Them helping you loot the treasury of your own country…”

“I was doing nothing of the sort” Moczar stared to protest only to see that she didn’t care.

“That isn’t what this looks like” Katherine said, “Your own countrymen will tear you to pieces.”

Moczar was feeling the edges of panic starting to creep in.

“Why are you doing this?” He demanded.

“Because of what your nonsense has already cost me” Katherine said with anger dripping from every word.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Well now, that's going to do a lot to dispel Polish nationalism as a rallying point. Having it shouted from the rooftops that so far from being a hero who was trying to 'restore Poland' or whatever, the PM was a corrupt thief who was plundering his own nation before Germany toppled his criminal junta... Yeah, that'll work out nicely for the Empire.

Add to that a Pole being placed in charge of the occupation...

 

[ejpsan]

Karol Wojtyla as Head of the Provisional Government of Poland makes great sense, sure a few marks from the massive rebuilding program that is going to happen under his control is going to stick to his fingers but they will get done and done correctly.

I wonder if there was encouragement from the Russian Empire to the Polish Nationalist Government as it was posted earlier that before the European War the younger nationalists were in favor of supporting the Soviet Union in a bid for independence.

I think that Germany is going to find that it has their hands full dealing with a richer Russia that has competent leadership and wanting to gain back its lost prestige and influence in the Slavic World.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Karol Wojtyla as Head of the Provisional Government of Poland makes great sense, sure a few marks from the massive rebuilding program that is going to happen under his control is going to stick to his fingers but they will get done and done correctly.

Bonus points if he builds some massive church/cathedral.

 

[EWilanO]

ITL Swiss accounts are starting to gain a rather less savoury reputation and have sunk rather low in the Tigress esteem. First, they helped finance the assasination attempt by Soviet operatives, then Otto Mischner's financial empire and now the Polish PM was trying to squirrel away money "to retake Poland".

I think a big cat is going to start whispering in the ears of the Finanzamt and the white collar division of the BII.

 

[Dan]

Karol Wojtyla as Head of the Provisional Government of Poland makes great sense, sure a few marks from the massive rebuilding program that is going to happen under his control is going to stick to his fingers but they will get done and done correctly.

Karol will know he's being watched closely so will know how to keep the graft an arms length away at all times. This could be the ultimate sinning saint if it turns out he not only rebuilds Poland, but makes it a better place in the process. it'll give him a thoroughly undeserved, but highly comical reputation as being incorruptible.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Karol Wojtyla as Head of the Provisional Government of Poland makes great sense, sure a few marks from the massive rebuilding program that is going to happen under his control is going to stick to his fingers but they will get done and done correctly.

I wonder if there was encouragement from the Russian Empire to the Polish Nationalist Government as it was posted earlier that before the European War the younger nationalists were in favor of supporting the Soviet Union in a bid for independence.

I think that Germany is going to find that it has their hands full dealing with a richer Russia that has competent leadership and wanting to gain back its lost prestige and influence in the Slavic World.

I think you could be very right indeed...Yeah, we've already seen that Russia is looking to make a comeback, and this would be absolutely perfect as their opening salvo.

...occurs to me that for all the actual benefit to Germany's geopolitical position having a 'friendly' Russian royal is doing, Gia might as well have stayed in obscurity...

 

[ferdi254]

Getting Swiss bank laws changed will take decades. Their argument against any change was they hid the money of the jews and other oppressed people while in reality they also hid the money of the dictators. Even the SED transferred money to Switzerland and as nearly every important person/party has their own secret funds in Switzerland nobody is willing to push too hard. Ask the CDU, the CSU and some other of OTL.

 

[ferdi254]

And btw I pity the people of Poland. I have lost the count a bit how many times in the last 50 years they have seen military action in their country.

 

[jlckansas]

Where is the Navy and Marines, we have heard from Kat and the Southern front?

 

[Pexa]

None of this was helped by the Defense Minister, Wojciech Jaruzelski

If there ever was a person who deserves whatever happens to him, Jaruzelski would be it. Unfortunately he is possibly quite different in this timeline, but still. Poetic justice bonus points if herr Wojtyla personally kicks his ass.

 

[EWilanO]

Getting Swiss bank laws changed will take decades. Their argument against any change was they hid the money of the jews and other oppressed people while in reality they also hid the money of the dictators. Even the SED transferred money to Switzerland and as nearly every important person/party has their own secret funds in Switzerland nobody is willing to push too hard. Ask the CDU, the CSU and some other of OTL.

Not changing the bank laws of Switzerland, but making depositing your money in Switzerland something you don't do... because if depositing money to Switzerland has bad reputation...

And what would happen if German banks were to stop all transactions with Swiss banks...

 

[jlckansas]

The way that the Green Beret are eavesdropping on the tactical network of the German Army, even from thousands of miles away is based upon real incidents that occurred during the same time period when it was discovered that Russian Military Intelligence was listening in on American radio transmissions in Vietnam from the Russian Far East. The Russians passing the intelligence gathered was passed on NVA forces which resulted in several unfortunate incidents for the US Army and Marine Corps in South Vietnam. The fact that the US NSA is involved at this point is hardly a surprise. The Tactical Network being largely in the clear, while the Command Networks are heavily encrypted is also fairly typical for the era. The equipment needed to do the coding and decoding being still too heavy and cumbersome for general field use.

Also remember that the Green Beret has worked closely with the KSK and the 7th Panzer Recon ITTL a couple different times.

From my Ham radio exams and personal experience you can get some different things happen to the radio waves depending on frequency. There is Tropospheric scattering and ducting, they have received 2 meter/144 mHz transmissions from Hawaii that are both TV and regular radio in Southern California on a regular basis due to this. You also have 6 meter/50 mHz AM and FM that can have sporadic E and F Skip that can have been detected from the Eastern US to Europe on a regular basis.
Depending on the time of the year and day and what the Sun is doing determines what can be heard when.

 

[ferdi254]

Ewilano that did not happen OTL and just because some criminal guy did put money into a Swiss bank account.. even Kar most likely has no interest in having the transactions become public.
And even until today most people do not care. Koch and Kohl are too long ago to be actual politics but newer examples are plentiful

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Karol Wojtyla as Head of the Provisional Government of Poland makes great sense, sure a few marks from the massive rebuilding program that is going to happen under his control is going to stick to his fingers but they will get done and done correctly.

Karol will know he's being watched closely so will know how to keep the graft an arms length away at all times.

To adapt a quote from Casino Royale...

'The Tigress really doesn't mind you earning a little money on the side, Karol. She'd just prefer it if it wasn't so obvious.'

 

[misterwibble]

To adapt a quote from Casino Royale...

'The Tigress really doesn't mind you earning a little money on the side, Karol. She'd just prefer it if it wasn't so obvious.'

I'm sure Karol is smart enough not to get too greedy. It's probably how he's managed to last this long without going inside.

 

[eriel_ramos]

Bonus points if he builds some massive church/cathedral.

Is this when he happens to meet a young electrician from Gdansk named Lech Wałęsa who got tired of the shipyards?

 

[docfl]

Is this when he happens to meet a young electrician from Gdansk named Lech Wałęsa who got tired of the shipyards?

That would be interesting