Stupid Luck and Happenstance, Thread II
- Thread starter Peabody-Martini
- Start date
Ireland, great britain and the united states share the jury system for civil cases.
Germany, france etc. have a different judical tradition. Here in germany the case is clear. The person violating the traffic lights is responsible if an accident happens.
If Aurora had cut the red lights, then she would be responsible and would have to pay damage and "Schmerzensgeld" (pain alleviation fine payable to the injured party).But in this case Mithrases wounds count as self inflicted via violation of traffic regulations by stepping onto the street while having no green pedestrian light.
Germany, france etc. have a different judical tradition. Here in germany the case is clear. The person violating the traffic lights is responsible if an accident happens.
If Aurora had cut the red lights, then she would be responsible and would have to pay damage and "Schmerzensgeld" (pain alleviation fine payable to the injured party).But in this case Mithrases wounds count as self inflicted via violation of traffic regulations by stepping onto the street while having no green pedestrian light.
ferdi254
Banned
Rinasoir and Dan forget about damages.
1. if he has crossed the street on red light directly in front of a car going by green with the allowed speed he (!) would be liable for the damage to the car and a PTSB treatment for the driver.
2. Cars in Germany have a very high legally demanded liability insurance that would have to pay if not for 1.
3. Even today compared to the USA damage payments in Germany are fairly low (see LH suicide pilot) in the 60s they were hardly measurable. Killing someone meant you had to pay the funeral and that was it. But even that would not hit the driver personally due to 1 and 2.
1. if he has crossed the street on red light directly in front of a car going by green with the allowed speed he (!) would be liable for the damage to the car and a PTSB treatment for the driver.
2. Cars in Germany have a very high legally demanded liability insurance that would have to pay if not for 1.
3. Even today compared to the USA damage payments in Germany are fairly low (see LH suicide pilot) in the 60s they were hardly measurable. Killing someone meant you had to pay the funeral and that was it. But even that would not hit the driver personally due to 1 and 2.
Yes indeed, but don't forget that this is a different younger generation : 1) As I posted above, not grieving the untimely death of their charismatic youthful President; 2) Not as affluent as OTL - no big wartime defence expansion and (as others have mentioned) no GI Bill and more international economic competition. Economic growth has probably been more organic and sustainable but these kids won't have been brought up in the fat years; 3) By and large, no absent fathers during their early childhood (as no WW2 for the USA); 4) No Cuban missile crisis or impending sense of nuclear holocaust (the Germans are the Joneses that need to be kept up with, rivals rather than ideological adversaries); 5) No Holocaust TTL so fewer doubts about Western Civilisation; 6) No Draft; and 7) No developing quagmire in SE Asia.
The kids (or some of them) probably love the sound but they haven't the drivers towards the counterculture that OTL American youth had. These kids won't be as escapist and will be more interested in how they will look to a prospective employer or Dean of Admissions
So yeah, zero legal repercussions for Aurora...and the guy who was trying to stay under the radar is now being looked at by the authorities for being the guilty party in a road-traffic accident.
Yeah, Mithras is not looking like a major threat for a while...
It's important to remember that some laws are different across the border / sea.
I remember reading an article back in the 1980s re: drink driving punishments around the world.
From memory, in either Yugoslavia or Romania, at the time , a first conviction* for drunk driving led to 5 - 10 years hard labour. A second conviction led to a firing squad.
(*If a death was involved, go straight to punishment number 2.)
This was due to an extremely high rate of booze related accidents resulting in severe injuries & deaths.
I remember reading an article back in the 1980s re: drink driving punishments around the world.
From memory, in either Yugoslavia or Romania, at the time , a first conviction* for drunk driving led to 5 - 10 years hard labour. A second conviction led to a firing squad.
(*If a death was involved, go straight to punishment number 2.)
This was due to an extremely high rate of booze related accidents resulting in severe injuries & deaths.
FBKampfer
Banned
I think the thing everyone is forgetting is that Zella, like her usual idiot self, pickpocketed Mithras.
Given involved persons, their playing spy, Mithras getting hit, and an incriminating document find its way into her grubby little fingers, I'm pretty sure that's more than plenty to convict if Mithras has a good lawyer.
Sure, it might actually have been an accident. But who's going to believe "it sure was a lucky break we accidentally hit the man we just spied on receiving a package, so that we could steal his package. What luck! What twist of fate!"
More to the point, while "beyond reasonable doubt" is a nice ideal, it rarely affects trials in the US where simply convincing the (often quite stupid) jury is the more important thing.
Given involved persons, their playing spy, Mithras getting hit, and an incriminating document find its way into her grubby little fingers, I'm pretty sure that's more than plenty to convict if Mithras has a good lawyer.
Sure, it might actually have been an accident. But who's going to believe "it sure was a lucky break we accidentally hit the man we just spied on receiving a package, so that we could steal his package. What luck! What twist of fate!"
More to the point, while "beyond reasonable doubt" is a nice ideal, it rarely affects trials in the US where simply convincing the (often quite stupid) jury is the more important thing.
You assume anyone will ever find out about the pick-pocketing. Odds are the only people who see it will be the kind uninterested in giving Mithras a trial, and instead he’ll die ‘in his sleep’.
A patient dies thanks to his own stupidity, Aurora gets sent for counselling for PTSD,by entire coincidence an investigation reveals graft at high levels, oh dear how sad never mind...
Despite the constant digs at the various fictional characters, FBKampfer has a point in that the pickpocketing, while seemingly smart at the time removes evidence that mithras is involved. When the hospital checks his belongings, the find the envelope and check it, next thing, the police are asking him why he has thousands of marks and a photo of someone.
That's when Kat gets involved, all nice and above board and the whole stinking mess gets dragged into the open.
Now if this evidence finds its way to Kat as it will need to, then it can only be dealt with on the quiet, which while it might be better in the short term, might not be in the long term.
The other option involves Zella telling Kiki and with Kiki's influence going to the Police and doing some very indepth, very fast, explaining as to why she is holding evidence.
That's when Kat gets involved, all nice and above board and the whole stinking mess gets dragged into the open.
Now if this evidence finds its way to Kat as it will need to, then it can only be dealt with on the quiet, which while it might be better in the short term, might not be in the long term.
The other option involves Zella telling Kiki and with Kiki's influence going to the Police and doing some very indepth, very fast, explaining as to why she is holding evidence.
"Herr Kohl, this isn't a punishment at all, NeuSchwarbia simply needs a new head of legal services. Its a civil service job, comes with a pension befitting such a position, and you have proven yourself such a man of principal. Of course this position is temporary and entirely voluntary. Ah, I understand Grafin Von Blackwood-Mischner also wishes to make an appointment with you soon... What's that? You wish to take the post up immediately? How public spirited of you sir. It is a twelve month fixed term contract which starts the moment you sign... here".
Ok, that's NOT going to happen, (no matter how amusing writing it was to write), as for all else, Germany ITTL is a place run to the rule of law. And a lawyer is obliged to represent his client yo the best of his ability regardless of personal feelings or outside influences. There won't be consequences for the lawyer.
The bills that Mithras as received and Zella pocketed could be very traceable because to get that amount of money in 100 ReichMarks denomination is something that is not lying around in the bank teller's drawer but is a special request that depending on where the bank the money came from it will take a little time to get.
If it came from a central branch of a bank then the money basically comes directly from The Central Bank of the German Empire and the bills are most likely are in sequential order and the serial numbers recorded.
It won't take long to trace the origins of where the bills came from, that is why when planning to kidnap and ran some someone you always ask for the money to be in non sequential order in order to prevent the money from being traced back.
One time when going to Las Vegas, I withdrew $5,000 in cash from a CD that just matured and I had to make an appointment to get the cash a couple of days later, when I got the money it was all $100 bills and it came directly from the Los Angeles branch of the San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank and it was all sequential, a tip for everybody do not joke about the reason for wanting that much cash as it may get you in a bit of hot water, fortunately the good people at the bank knew my sense of humor and just gave me a warning not to do it again.
If it came from a central branch of a bank then the money basically comes directly from The Central Bank of the German Empire and the bills are most likely are in sequential order and the serial numbers recorded.
It won't take long to trace the origins of where the bills came from, that is why when planning to kidnap and ran some someone you always ask for the money to be in non sequential order in order to prevent the money from being traced back.
One time when going to Las Vegas, I withdrew $5,000 in cash from a CD that just matured and I had to make an appointment to get the cash a couple of days later, when I got the money it was all $100 bills and it came directly from the Los Angeles branch of the San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank and it was all sequential, a tip for everybody do not joke about the reason for wanting that much cash as it may get you in a bit of hot water, fortunately the good people at the bank knew my sense of humor and just gave me a warning not to do it again.
I'm not sure about Yugoslavia, but in Romania, out of 104 people officially executed during Ceausescu's tenure, most of them were "politicals", some of them criminals (murderers with aggravating circumstance) and a handful for the equivalent of white collar crimes. There were no men executed for killing people with a car in whatever circumstances, not even Eugen Grigore, a man who killed more then 20 people with his truck as vengeance for his murdered family (life can equal fiction sometimes).
The hard labour part is accurate, though, and the various "projects" killed more than 10.000 people.
As I said, it was in a newspaper article back in the 1980s. Memory is a little hazy on the details and there was no internet fact checker available back then. I do know that the paper in question ceased publication in the mid 1990s so its archives were almost certainly never digitised, so checking today would be near impossible.
I think there is another mitigating circumstance that is being ignored, that being the "screeching of tires". This shows that Aurora had no intent to run down Mithras, and even he heard that. Any other witnesses will also attest to this. Also any skid marks will be obvious at the scene of the accident.
The scary thing is that Aurora's name as the driver and Zella's name as a witness are on the accident report, and they go the the same University as Mithras, and he knows they are buds with Kiki so he will figure out that they took the fat envelope from him. Just depends if Mithras can be nailed to a cross before he can get out of the hospital to do something about it.
The scary thing is that Aurora's name as the driver and Zella's name as a witness are on the accident report, and they go the the same University as Mithras, and he knows they are buds with Kiki so he will figure out that they took the fat envelope from him. Just depends if Mithras can be nailed to a cross before he can get out of the hospital to do something about it.
Part 101, Chapter 1616
Chapter One Thousand Six Hundred Sixteen
29th February 1964
Werder
It being a leap year it was the rare occasion where it was possible for Suse Rosa’s birthday to actually be celebrated on the date of her birth. Naturally everyone made a lot of jokes about it being her fourth birthday, though she was turning sixteen. Suse had never liked large parties and insisted, much to her mother’s disappointment, that it should only be herself, Jo and Ina this year. They would go out to dinner and go to the cinema, then they would have cake afterwards like they had every year since Suse had turned twelve. Gerta felt that her daughter should want far more than that this year, her sixteenth birthday was supposed to be special. Suse had remained steadfast in what she wanted, right up until Princess Marie Cecilie called to enquire about the party that Suse was throwing and asked if she should expect an invitation.
Suddenly, Gerta had the perfect excuse to overrule her daughter and had pulled out all the stops. The result was something that Suse found completely terrifying. The house had been decorated on a massive scale and a large number of friends and family had been invited. Suse considered it fortunate that it was late February, otherwise who knew what spectacle her mother would have done with the entire property if this had been in August.
Alois, Suse’s eleven-year-old brother had not been happy when he had been told that he was going to spend the weekend at a friend’s house. While Suse knew better than to say it aloud, but Suse was happy that he wasn’t going to be around. Even though he was four and a half years younger than she was, Alois was already more outgoing and popular than Suse ever was. Now, as she sat in her bedroom with the guests gathering downstairs Suse was reminded that she didn’t like crowds. Looking over, she saw a bit of movement under her bed, two amber eyes peered out and a bit of the shadow detached itself, resolving into the shape of Finster.
When some of her classmates had found out that Suse had a black cat, they had asked if he was her demon familiar. Just one example cruelty that she had endured for years as the idea that she was something other than human. Her mother had always told her that the things that made people different needed to be celebrated. As Suse had discovered that she was smaller than everyone else and her eyes lent her an unearthly appearance, she had come to hate those differences. Eventually she had accepted who she was. Things happened though, like the humiliating incident with the flour that drove home how she would never be like other people.
There came knocking on the door and Suse heard her mother’s voice. “Suse, your guests are starting to wonder where you are” She said through the door. “Locking yourself in your room will not make them go away.”
Realizing that she would need to make an appearance, Suse steeled herself and walked through the door. As soon as she walked down the stairs. She saw that indeed, almost all the people she knew were in the house.
Jo spotted her, “I knew that you wouldn’t stay up there forever” She said. And she guided Suse into the room, the effect was like a kaleidoscope as she walked through. She had cynically joked that Jo looked like a goddess from a Viking epic. Tonight, as Jo pulled her along, seemingly inevitable, that didn’t seem as funny.
“Look who I found” Jo exclaimed as Suse found herself standing in front of Ria and a woman who looked about a decade older than her.
“This is my Aunt Sigi, the first woman in outer space” Ria said.
Looking at Sigi, Suse realized that she looked a lot like Ria’s father. “Another Princess?” She asked.
Ria and Sigi just laughed.
“I’m no Princess” Sigi said, “My father just happens to be Ria’s grandfather is all.”
That wasn’t what Suse had been expecting.
Tempelhof, Berlin
When Kiki found out about what had happened in Wedding, she was horrified by what they had done. Then she saw the evidence that they had gathered, and then things really went sideways. The stack of hundred Reichsmarks notes and the photographs didn’t get the reaction that Aurora might have hoped for. Instead, she took one look at the photograph of Mithras with the swell who had given him the envelope and she went entirely still, then she saw the money. Minutes later, Kiki was pacing around the room. Aurora realized that this was the angriest that she had ever seen Kiki.
“You know who that man with Mithras is?” Aurora asked.
“Yes” Kiki snapped, “And that money, it belongs to my family.”
“What does Jack Kennedy have to do with any of this?” Zella asked and immediately got the stink eye from Kiki.
“Who the Hell is Jack Kennedy?” Kiki demanded.
“He’s a friend of Tante Kat” Aurora said.
“I have no idea how he fits in with all of this” Kiki said then she paused for a minute, “Don’t you two get the danger you have put yourselves in? You could go to jail if anyone ever finds out how you got that envelope and Mithras himself is going to be looking for it.”
“That man has tried to kill you twice” Zella said, “My only regret is that Aurora didn’t back over him.”
“Zella!” Aurora yelled, she felt bad enough about putting him in the hospital with a bad concussion and broken ribs. Having to live with killing him… That would be awful.
29th February 1964
Werder
It being a leap year it was the rare occasion where it was possible for Suse Rosa’s birthday to actually be celebrated on the date of her birth. Naturally everyone made a lot of jokes about it being her fourth birthday, though she was turning sixteen. Suse had never liked large parties and insisted, much to her mother’s disappointment, that it should only be herself, Jo and Ina this year. They would go out to dinner and go to the cinema, then they would have cake afterwards like they had every year since Suse had turned twelve. Gerta felt that her daughter should want far more than that this year, her sixteenth birthday was supposed to be special. Suse had remained steadfast in what she wanted, right up until Princess Marie Cecilie called to enquire about the party that Suse was throwing and asked if she should expect an invitation.
Suddenly, Gerta had the perfect excuse to overrule her daughter and had pulled out all the stops. The result was something that Suse found completely terrifying. The house had been decorated on a massive scale and a large number of friends and family had been invited. Suse considered it fortunate that it was late February, otherwise who knew what spectacle her mother would have done with the entire property if this had been in August.
Alois, Suse’s eleven-year-old brother had not been happy when he had been told that he was going to spend the weekend at a friend’s house. While Suse knew better than to say it aloud, but Suse was happy that he wasn’t going to be around. Even though he was four and a half years younger than she was, Alois was already more outgoing and popular than Suse ever was. Now, as she sat in her bedroom with the guests gathering downstairs Suse was reminded that she didn’t like crowds. Looking over, she saw a bit of movement under her bed, two amber eyes peered out and a bit of the shadow detached itself, resolving into the shape of Finster.
When some of her classmates had found out that Suse had a black cat, they had asked if he was her demon familiar. Just one example cruelty that she had endured for years as the idea that she was something other than human. Her mother had always told her that the things that made people different needed to be celebrated. As Suse had discovered that she was smaller than everyone else and her eyes lent her an unearthly appearance, she had come to hate those differences. Eventually she had accepted who she was. Things happened though, like the humiliating incident with the flour that drove home how she would never be like other people.
There came knocking on the door and Suse heard her mother’s voice. “Suse, your guests are starting to wonder where you are” She said through the door. “Locking yourself in your room will not make them go away.”
Realizing that she would need to make an appearance, Suse steeled herself and walked through the door. As soon as she walked down the stairs. She saw that indeed, almost all the people she knew were in the house.
Jo spotted her, “I knew that you wouldn’t stay up there forever” She said. And she guided Suse into the room, the effect was like a kaleidoscope as she walked through. She had cynically joked that Jo looked like a goddess from a Viking epic. Tonight, as Jo pulled her along, seemingly inevitable, that didn’t seem as funny.
“Look who I found” Jo exclaimed as Suse found herself standing in front of Ria and a woman who looked about a decade older than her.
“This is my Aunt Sigi, the first woman in outer space” Ria said.
Looking at Sigi, Suse realized that she looked a lot like Ria’s father. “Another Princess?” She asked.
Ria and Sigi just laughed.
“I’m no Princess” Sigi said, “My father just happens to be Ria’s grandfather is all.”
That wasn’t what Suse had been expecting.
Tempelhof, Berlin
When Kiki found out about what had happened in Wedding, she was horrified by what they had done. Then she saw the evidence that they had gathered, and then things really went sideways. The stack of hundred Reichsmarks notes and the photographs didn’t get the reaction that Aurora might have hoped for. Instead, she took one look at the photograph of Mithras with the swell who had given him the envelope and she went entirely still, then she saw the money. Minutes later, Kiki was pacing around the room. Aurora realized that this was the angriest that she had ever seen Kiki.
“You know who that man with Mithras is?” Aurora asked.
“Yes” Kiki snapped, “And that money, it belongs to my family.”
“What does Jack Kennedy have to do with any of this?” Zella asked and immediately got the stink eye from Kiki.
“Who the Hell is Jack Kennedy?” Kiki demanded.
“He’s a friend of Tante Kat” Aurora said.
“I have no idea how he fits in with all of this” Kiki said then she paused for a minute, “Don’t you two get the danger you have put yourselves in? You could go to jail if anyone ever finds out how you got that envelope and Mithras himself is going to be looking for it.”
“That man has tried to kill you twice” Zella said, “My only regret is that Aurora didn’t back over him.”
“Zella!” Aurora yelled, she felt bad enough about putting him in the hospital with a bad concussion and broken ribs. Having to live with killing him… That would be awful.
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So a rookie reporter and the daughter of some merchants managed to find out more about this in the actual investigators and intelligence agencies, this won’t go over well with top brass. Hilarious but still, quite the shake up could happen amongst those groups, for getting upstaged like this.
We have heard of many things that has described the relationship between Kat and Jack Kennedy but friend is not one of them.
But the thing is that once Kat has learned that Jack is a target then Kat goes into full Tigeress mode.
Love the introduction between Suse Rosa and Sigi and how Suse Rosa immediately picks up on how much Rea and Sigi look alike to each other.
More importantly Suse Rosa will find that she has other options and it will be ironic that her father Kurt is considered to be the greatest Tank Commander of all time and his daughter might become a "tank killer" helicopter pilot one day.
There will be some discussion about it but Gerta was right to force her daughter in to a social situation that made Suse Rosa uncomfortable because sometimes parents can't let their children just hide from the world.
So, Kiki, Aurora and Zella are going to inherit the "Three Furies" luck or stupidity here?
I mean, common sense here would be telling either Kat or the the Emperor. Not actually do anything else but that.....
No, Rinasoir, that's not necessarily how it works. Seriously.
There is something called here in America called "Contributory Negligence", so if you step out into the street without making sure that there is no traffic coming and you get hit, "it's your own damn fault, you big stupid!" A jury gets to decide your level of negligence and that is "deducted" from the other person's (or company) level of culpability. "Because you did this, you are found to be 80% negligent" means the other side is adjudged to be only 20% responsible, and any monetary judgements are based on the level. In one case I know of, the respondent found only 20% negligent sued the other party for legal fees & won! Isn't American civil law wonderful? And in most cases the civil laws vary to one extent or anther depending on the 50 different states! Crazy!!
But please don't presume laws here in America - especially civil laws - are the same in the German Empire, this timeline or P-M's! Here in the States, one can sue for damages even though the accident was their fault - but German civil laws are different, and likely as unlike American civil law as possible. American civil law (and some criminal law) is based on old English Common Law. Not German Common Law (IDK what form that takes). But German civil laws are more likely based on laws & customs dating from the Holy Roman Empire than from English Common Law. So a comparison of German civil law & remedies vs US civil law & remedies is kinda doing an "orange vs. avocado" comparison, IMHO.
P-M wrote, "He wasn’t paying attention when he stepped out into the street against the light and the only warning that he had was the squeal of tires on pavement as a car tried to stop before it hit him. That right there stops ANY criminal investigation in it's inception. If Aurora was trying to kill him, it's 100% more likely that she'd be accelerating before hitting him.
So, very little civil responsibility attaches to someone else if a fool does foolish things and gets sent to hospital. Or in Mithra's case, unfortunately not to the Undertaker (Downunder's Funeral Parlor; "You down 'em, we'll under 'em!").
And a defense based on the reflex time needed to react IS a great defense, since it's scientifically well established that human mental reaction time takes at least 0.05 to 0.78 seconds, and muscular reaction time, .20 to .29 seconds, so between 0.75 and 1.07 seconds will elapse before any possible action to, say, step on the break pedal, could possibly occur. Even in a car traveling 5-10 MPH
Then there is the distance needed to stop that vehicle, which vary to many factors. However, we're loosing sight of the apple.
A person blindly stepping out into the street like Mithras did is the only person responsible if all other factors are even. Aurora did not attempt to assassinate Mithras! His injuries are strictly a result of Mithras' own stupidity and negligence. I'm kinda sorry it wasn't his death, but Aurora doesn't need the mental trauma caused to most people by having killed someone. It sucks, even if you're in the military (USMC) and are trained, indoctrinated, & encouraged to want to kill other people (those enemy guys there), and then have to do it.
A group (Russian women, maybe) talking about it and then doing it are 2 different things, and mentally/emotionally surviving after killing another human being isn't all that easy (for most of us) unless maybe you're a psychopath.
Since Aurora's hitting Mithras was an accident (and P-M says it was an accident), she truly bears no legal or social burden.
OTOH, if Aurora had hit him on purpose, a halfway decent lawyer worth his/her salt would chew up the prosecution's case.
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