Stupid Luck and Happenstance, Thread II
- Thread starter Peabody-Martini
- Start date
After the IJA-IJN Civil War basically every hardcore Army officer in the IJA has either died in battle, committed suicide, executed for treason, serving long prison terms, or just plain kicked out of the army.
The Army is from my interpretations is firmly under civilian control and has become a much more professional organization.
Japan has invested in Korea and are now doing business under equal partnership which goes a long way in overcoming hurt feelings.
.....thats a pretty thin line there though. I mean granted that business and money go a long way to "forgive and forget", but even then its not the be all and end all said "forgive and forget"
At the risk of sounding crass, that's like throwing a hundred on the bed after beating and raping a woman and calling it even. And if you think I'm exaggerating, the Koreans are STILL bent over Japan's refusal to acknowledge their crimes during the colonial era, 75 years later.
The "Army" was not seen as the problem but the Japanese people and shy an out-right apology by the government, (not going to happen even in Germany demands it) tensions will be high and ACTIVE Japanese forces in Korea isn't going to happen. Korea LETTING Japanese into the fight is going to get a lot of people in the area to side with China as no one wants them back in the area under any circumstances.
It may not be talked about but it is definitly NOT a "nonissue" and won't be something that can be swept away.
Randy
Koreans may not like troops on the ground (can’t blame them) but CAS, NGFS and other logistical, medical help would be handy and appreciated. An honest “tell us how we can help and we’ll see it done” from the Japanese Gov’t would go a long way as well.
Edit: I do not type well on a phone.
Edit: I do not type well on a phone.
Japan's military value in this conflict could be as a relatively close and secure logistics base and as a possible threat to China in regards to operations further down the Chinese coast. Korea would have to be in dire straits to willingly allow Japanese troops onto their soil, better for them to conduct operations further south to secure Korea's flanks.
Indeed, Taiwan had a comparatively civilised Japanese occupation and TTL Vietnam didn't really have a significant Japanese occupation at all. Much more likely to appreciate Japanese reinforcements than the Koreans.
I don't see any rational argument against these first two, and the 4th points. The 4th point especially as America has over 50 years of automotive mass production experience at this point so will have quality control down pat.
This is true to an extent - it was based on first hand experience from combat in WWII facing HEAT shells. If the Germans, (most likely "Enemy"), are using mostly AP for example, (and likely would given the good penetration characteristics of an 88mm Dual Purpose gun), then the experience of being on the receiving end of HEAT is probably, (and thankfully), far lesser, meaning the impetus to develop composite armour also lessens.
As it is, (and apologies from quoting Wikipedia here):
Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_armour said:
Even if the US Army has been experimenting with composite armour, we're only 7 years or so off of the OTL first development of Composite, so without the OTL WWII and Korean experiences, the US Army might be looking at it about now, but it's unlikely to be in production anywhere, let alone in the US. Spaced armour and sloping are, (in my opinion at least), the most likely avenues of development, which will likely eventually lead to Chobham armour, although I suspect that as the British lacked the WWII armoured warfare lessons of the OTL WWII ITTL, then this is likely to be delayed too. I don't see anyone having composite ITTL for around 10 years, (ITTL), yet.
Part 94, Chapter 1477
Chapter One Thousand Four Hundred Seventy-Seven
12th March 1962
Mitte, Berlin
As Kat left the building that housed the headquarters for KSK she was accosted by journalists shouting questions as she made her way to the car park. So much for it being a secret location, Kat thought to herself. It was something that she was unaccustomed to, but obviously word had leaked out that she had been tapped to lead the composite Division, so suddenly everyone remembered who she was. Today, that came in the form of shouted questions. It was hardly a surprise that they mostly were related to the expanding crisis in Korea and the televised address that the American President had done a few days earlier. Kat’s personal opinion was that all of this was a consequence of events that had occurred decades earlier. She remembered reading about the 1940 Presidential Election when she had been visiting Emil and Maria in Australia. That election had come down to Internationalism vs. Isolationism. She had remembered that both sides had very good reasons for their perspective. The Isolationists had won that debate and now, two decades later, they were finding that the consequences of that policy were not to their liking.
“I cannot comment on policy” Kat said, “I can only repeat what the Chancellor’s statement that we do not consider the Americans our enemies, we have shared values and history and it is deeply regrettable that their President has taken this tact.”
The Chancellor had made certain that everyone at all levels of Government were singing from the same hymnal book, with particular attention being paid to those who were considered loose cannons. Kat had been included among those loose cannons though she couldn’t think of anything that she had done to warrant such consideration.
“Will this crisis affect your plans to attend the wedding of Grand Duchess Alexandra?” One of the reporters asked.
That was something that Kat could comment on.
“There is nothing on Earth that will keep me from attending the wedding of one my sisters” Kat replied.
That resulted in more questions from the journalists as Kat walked though the gate to the secured car park. It was widely known that she had a somewhat expansive definition of who she considered her family. That included a lost Russian Princess who she had welcomed into her household.
Getting into her car, Kat turned on the ignition and music from the University Radio Station filled her car. It was the strange mutation of Surf Rock that had reached Germany over the prior year or so. The emphasis was different, that was for certain. It took a special sort to surf the waves on the North Sea. It was reflected in the music that they played, harder and grittier than their fun in sun counterparts in California. That was what she listened to as she drove out of the center of the city towards Tempelhof, rather than turn for home, she headed for the Humboldt Campus and the Teaching Hospital.
The invitation had been strange. Nora Berg had said that her usual Monday lunch appointment was going to be out of town and that Kat was welcome to meet her in Hospital Cafeteria. Kat was tempted to show up early and meet Berg in her office just to tweak her nose, but she had said that Kat had a negative effect on her patients back when Kat had been one of them.
No one gave Kat a second look as she entered the Cafeteria. It was something that was rare for her these days and it was actually welcome. After placing her order, and hopefully preempting one of Berg’s favorite tricks, Kat found the table and sat down across from the Doctor.
“How are your children Katherine?” Berg asked, not looking up from the medical journal she was reading. “Is Malcolm still having difficulty reading?”
“Yes” Kat replied with a touch of anger. “You ask around about my children?”
“I follow all the children I’ve helped bring into this world” Berg said putting the magazine down. “Yours are no different than the rest. I don’t see too many paternal twins though, so Tatiana and Malcolm do stand out in that regard.”
“Oh” Kat replied. That question was simply a matter of courtesy and there had been no ill intent behind it. Berg had been present while Kat had been in delivery in case there were complications and had been tasked by Peter Holz to make sure that Kat took proper care of herself when she had been pregnant. So, she was genuinely interested in knowing how Kat’s children were. “Malcolm is still struggling, he had Tatiana helping him cover for that for a while, but his teachers got wise to that.”
“Marie?”
“Thriving” Kat replied, “Her Kindergarten Teacher gets driven to distraction by her constantly asking questions.”
Berg found that amusing.
“And you?” Berg asked, “Any regrets about how you did things? I know that Marie was a surprise, IUDs rarely fail, but it does happen.”
“No” Kat said, “She is wonderful.”
“Good” Berg replied, “Now, about the recent amorous adventures of a young woman whose father had hoped would have a bit better sense.”
“I think that it was somewhat sensible” Kat said, “She understands the odds of her survival in the coming months and doesn’t want to die a virgin. Benjamin Hirsch cares about her and isn’t a brute, so he was a decent, although not a particularly skilled choice.”
“I worry though” Berg said, “If she was in an emotionally vulnerable state, Kiki could have been taken advantage of.”
Kat just smiled and shook her head. “According to the BII team that keeps tabs on Kiki even though she has requested not to have a full security detail, it was Kiki who came onto him.” She said, “Much to Ben’s surprise and I think that Kiki wasn’t the only one who lost her virginity last week.”
“Are you saying that we should be happy this happened?”
“No” Kat replied, “Far from it, but it was her choice, which is the important part.”
12th March 1962
Mitte, Berlin
As Kat left the building that housed the headquarters for KSK she was accosted by journalists shouting questions as she made her way to the car park. So much for it being a secret location, Kat thought to herself. It was something that she was unaccustomed to, but obviously word had leaked out that she had been tapped to lead the composite Division, so suddenly everyone remembered who she was. Today, that came in the form of shouted questions. It was hardly a surprise that they mostly were related to the expanding crisis in Korea and the televised address that the American President had done a few days earlier. Kat’s personal opinion was that all of this was a consequence of events that had occurred decades earlier. She remembered reading about the 1940 Presidential Election when she had been visiting Emil and Maria in Australia. That election had come down to Internationalism vs. Isolationism. She had remembered that both sides had very good reasons for their perspective. The Isolationists had won that debate and now, two decades later, they were finding that the consequences of that policy were not to their liking.
“I cannot comment on policy” Kat said, “I can only repeat what the Chancellor’s statement that we do not consider the Americans our enemies, we have shared values and history and it is deeply regrettable that their President has taken this tact.”
The Chancellor had made certain that everyone at all levels of Government were singing from the same hymnal book, with particular attention being paid to those who were considered loose cannons. Kat had been included among those loose cannons though she couldn’t think of anything that she had done to warrant such consideration.
“Will this crisis affect your plans to attend the wedding of Grand Duchess Alexandra?” One of the reporters asked.
That was something that Kat could comment on.
“There is nothing on Earth that will keep me from attending the wedding of one my sisters” Kat replied.
That resulted in more questions from the journalists as Kat walked though the gate to the secured car park. It was widely known that she had a somewhat expansive definition of who she considered her family. That included a lost Russian Princess who she had welcomed into her household.
Getting into her car, Kat turned on the ignition and music from the University Radio Station filled her car. It was the strange mutation of Surf Rock that had reached Germany over the prior year or so. The emphasis was different, that was for certain. It took a special sort to surf the waves on the North Sea. It was reflected in the music that they played, harder and grittier than their fun in sun counterparts in California. That was what she listened to as she drove out of the center of the city towards Tempelhof, rather than turn for home, she headed for the Humboldt Campus and the Teaching Hospital.
The invitation had been strange. Nora Berg had said that her usual Monday lunch appointment was going to be out of town and that Kat was welcome to meet her in Hospital Cafeteria. Kat was tempted to show up early and meet Berg in her office just to tweak her nose, but she had said that Kat had a negative effect on her patients back when Kat had been one of them.
No one gave Kat a second look as she entered the Cafeteria. It was something that was rare for her these days and it was actually welcome. After placing her order, and hopefully preempting one of Berg’s favorite tricks, Kat found the table and sat down across from the Doctor.
“How are your children Katherine?” Berg asked, not looking up from the medical journal she was reading. “Is Malcolm still having difficulty reading?”
“Yes” Kat replied with a touch of anger. “You ask around about my children?”
“I follow all the children I’ve helped bring into this world” Berg said putting the magazine down. “Yours are no different than the rest. I don’t see too many paternal twins though, so Tatiana and Malcolm do stand out in that regard.”
“Oh” Kat replied. That question was simply a matter of courtesy and there had been no ill intent behind it. Berg had been present while Kat had been in delivery in case there were complications and had been tasked by Peter Holz to make sure that Kat took proper care of herself when she had been pregnant. So, she was genuinely interested in knowing how Kat’s children were. “Malcolm is still struggling, he had Tatiana helping him cover for that for a while, but his teachers got wise to that.”
“Marie?”
“Thriving” Kat replied, “Her Kindergarten Teacher gets driven to distraction by her constantly asking questions.”
Berg found that amusing.
“And you?” Berg asked, “Any regrets about how you did things? I know that Marie was a surprise, IUDs rarely fail, but it does happen.”
“No” Kat said, “She is wonderful.”
“Good” Berg replied, “Now, about the recent amorous adventures of a young woman whose father had hoped would have a bit better sense.”
“I think that it was somewhat sensible” Kat said, “She understands the odds of her survival in the coming months and doesn’t want to die a virgin. Benjamin Hirsch cares about her and isn’t a brute, so he was a decent, although not a particularly skilled choice.”
“I worry though” Berg said, “If she was in an emotionally vulnerable state, Kiki could have been taken advantage of.”
Kat just smiled and shook her head. “According to the BII team that keeps tabs on Kiki even though she has requested not to have a full security detail, it was Kiki who came onto him.” She said, “Much to Ben’s surprise and I think that Kiki wasn’t the only one who lost her virginity last week.”
“Are you saying that we should be happy this happened?”
“No” Kat replied, “Far from it, but it was her choice, which is the important part.”
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FBKampfer
Banned
Yes, but it's also true that every army trains to fight itself.
In this case, the US finds itself as being believers in both HEAT and the "thicc and curvy" mantlet/turret face. Absent any outside input, these two are likely to be the prime motive force when it comes to US AFV design.
Meaning there isn't a lack of motivation or awareness, but perhaps only a lack of urgency depending on how serious the war department takes war with Germany.
Woha. I'm probably a bit late to the party, but I didn't realize that relations had gotten that explicitly hostile. I thought diplomacy between the two powers had been frosty but almost demonstratively respectful before. This escalation in stance might be regarded as one of the turning points of the century - towards the worse.
If they weren't in a cold war before, they certainly are now - as if the launch of a proxy conflict didn't give that away already.
I wonder about Russia's stance in this Asian conflict. As was mentioned somewhere, Russia will not really like the idea of having a agressive/expansionist China on its border.
At the very least they will reinforce their border-forces.
And if they really want to get in on it, the Tsar might offer Germany the use of Russian railways through Siberia. Wouldn't be the first time that route was followed by the German army in this timeline, after all.
The Chinese really wouldn't want a combined Russian-German force stampeding through their northern provinces, I imagine.
At the very least they will reinforce their border-forces.
And if they really want to get in on it, the Tsar might offer Germany the use of Russian railways through Siberia. Wouldn't be the first time that route was followed by the German army in this timeline, after all.
The Chinese really wouldn't want a combined Russian-German force stampeding through their northern provinces, I imagine.
And its a cold war against Europe as a whole, not just the German Empire. Factor in the League of Nations support for the Korean Empire and the interlocking nature of the various mutual economic & mutual defense treaties, its a cold war involving the US on one side & practically the rest of the world on the other.
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Well that's bad for a lot of people then. The US needs a market for it's exports and a reliable stream of imports for growth. There's a good change that they'll end up propping up "democratic revolutions" throughout the world or even supporting dictators as long as they get access to the resources they'll need. They'll be pissing off every European power with calls to decolonize, straining relationships and economic ties.
... So the more things change, huh. The only difference is that I don't see the US "winning" this one.
If, at the end of the conflict, all of the corpses are on the Korean side of the Yalu, how does Harriman expect to convince anyone that this was the Chinese fighting against colonialism?
Because the Koreans are colonial Puppets of the Germans of course!!
As per OTL as long as they are kept in the 'background' (as in Japan) things will be fine. While yes such a statement would go far in Japanese/Korean relations it won't happen. Unless there has been a massive social shift TTL which I've not seen as per OTL in the general thinking of Japan, Korea is still a province of Japan that they are 'allowing' to rule themselves 'just for a bit' until Japan can get around to 'fixing' the problem. It took to the mid-70s OTL for Japan and Korea to start really talking I don't see anything in TTL that would have modified that attitude.
Really at this point since there is still a high trust of government in the US and little interest for things outside the US he can spin it any way he wants. Pointing to a looming Russian Empire on one side and a German controlled Korea on the other as reasons along with Korea being a 'historic' part of China which Japan took away from them. Really he's a politician and he's got a staff of professional "spin" doctors and likely a pretty tame press to make his case to the only people that count: voters.
Randy