Stupid Luck and Happenstance, Thread II

The reason that the United States got involved with Turkey is I think that ITTL the United States Navy does not have that many friendly ports in the Mediterranean to make port calls on and Turkey is one of the few places that will allow the United States to use their ports.
For Turkey they seem to be shut out on the European markets and from other posts by PM the Orthodox countries have been rubbing the loss of Constantinople in the Turks faces lately.
What we don't know is why Turkey chose this action at this time and did the United States have advanced word on it?
 
Turkey is one of the few places that will allow the United States to use their ports.
Turkey WAS, emphasis in the past verb. Right now after the fiasco with the Greeks the Americans are more likely to be spat then politely told to get the hell outta any Turk port before the Turkish controls decide to "find" something illegal then impound vessels.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
They likely just got ballsy from the influx of US gear, thought a two-front war would be enough to give them the upper hand, and were counting on a surprise attack through smuggling tunnels to tear a gap in the Greek MLR.

Remember Turkish soldiers were not incompetent and poorly trained, even if they were the "sick man". They were solid soldiers, good marksmen, well led, and desperately underequipped.

Even currently, I'd say the bigger problem they face is poor political leadership IOTL. ITTL, US goods shored up their one big flaw (in their minds), and they had everything set up to kick Greece's teeth in.

It was a good plan, but they lost their surprise attack plan, had bad Intel on Greek armor, and the Russians were a strategic surprise for everyone. These things happen to everyone sometimes. Every nation in war has gotten a bloody nose from something that should have been a cake walk at some point.



But my bet is that the Turks get a batch of M48's sporting 105's and siliceous-cored composite armor in a short while.



APDS and HEAT should be forming the bulk of major combatant's stockpiles at this point as well, somewhat leveling the playing field all around.

Notable is that US tanks tended the have very good turret armor. Even throwing HEAT, the Germans should be at a bit of a tactical disadvantage due to their propensity for flat plate vs hemispherical (ala T-54) or cast curved turrets (M48, M60, M103).
 
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Turkey WAS, emphasis in the past verb. Right now after the fiasco with the Greeks the Americans are more likely to be spat then politely told to get the hell outta any Turk port before the Turkish controls decide to "find" something illegal then impound vessels.
I have doubts about that, Turkey seems to me to have no friends ITTL in Europe and they could have a Most Favored Nation status of even a Free Trade Agreement with the Americans because that is their only outlet to export their products to be world.
Depending on what Greece wants to do to Turkey in order to punish them, Turkey may want to lease some air bases to the United States as their own insurance policy against a resurgent Russian Empire and a vindictive Greece, but Truman should think twice about that because it may just only inflame tensions in the region and it is just not worth it.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
Also would like to note for PM, that the M4 Sherman was actually a very well designed tank.

Excellent view even when fully buttoned up, solid armor for 1942 (roughly 100mm effective thickness, or the equal of a Tiger I up close (angle of fire negates some of this at longer ranges)), and when penetrated, a LOWER percentage of them burned or brewed up as compared to German Panzer IV's and Panthers.

Additionally the primary cause of brew ups seems to have been the explosive component of German AP shells rather than placement of ammunition or fuel type.
 
I would have thought that Turkey could make back some of what they spend on the Sherman's reselling them to the rest of Europe.
While it may not have performed against German and Russian tanks as hoped, it's still very useful to pretty much every other army in a role it's quite suited for.




After all, everyone needs Range Targets...
 
Also would like to note for PM, that the M4 Sherman was actually a very well designed tank.

Excellent view even when fully buttoned up, solid armor for 1942 (roughly 100mm effective thickness, or the equal of a Tiger I up close (angle of fire negates some of this at longer ranges)), and when penetrated, a LOWER percentage of them burned or brewed up as compared to German Panzer IV's and Panthers.

Additionally the primary cause of brew ups seems to have been the explosive component of German AP shells rather than placement of ammunition or fuel type.

Thank you. That is something of a peeve of mine. They weren't bad tanks, though a this point they are obsolete, and badly outclassed. The US knew some time ago they needed new tanks, so I assume they have something much nicer in the wings.
 
Thank you. That is something of a peeve of mine. They weren't bad tanks, though a this point they are obsolete, and badly outclassed. The US knew some time ago they needed new tanks, so I assume they have something much nicer in the wings.

I never said Sherman was a bad design, just that in OTL it was shaped by two years of war and experiences of prior designs before it reached its definitive form. ITTL it didn't get that. The result was that early stage M4s found themselves up against late stage Panther IIs from the final months of the Soviet War. It wouldn't be an even fight.
 
I never said Sherman was a bad design, just that in OTL it was shaped by two years of war and experiences of prior designs before it reached its definitive form. ITTL it didn't get that. The result was that early stage M4s found themselves up against late stage Panther IIs from the final months of the Soviet War. It wouldn't be an even fight.

That wasn't directed at you; Shermans get a very bad rap in general, and apparently a lot of hate on the forums. As I noted, ITTL regardless of what they are, they are also obsolete. I don't expect ANY Sherman to stand in the line against Leopards and T54s
 
Lets not forget that in this timeline the US has a reputation of join conflicts late and just to to reap most profit.
This type of action will discretid them further, they will not be able to form solid aliances in europe.
 
What we need is the point of view from the Turkish side because this could have been a case of Turkey striking first before Greece could get the first shot off.
There have been several posts about the rising tensions between Greece and Turkey and it was just a matter of time before something set it off.
Greece is most likely to be a member of The League of Nations and Turkey may not be a member and both sides could have rejected any attempts to mediate the situation.
Another flashpoint should be in Cyprus with clashes between the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots and that should be a whole lot of fun for the British over there.
 
What we need is the point of view from the Turkish side because this could have been a case of Turkey striking first before Greece could get the first shot off.
There have been several posts about the rising tensions between Greece and Turkey and it was just a matter of time before something set it off.
Greece is most likely to be a member of The League of Nations and Turkey may not be a member and both sides could have rejected any attempts to mediate the situation.
Another flashpoint should be in Cyprus with clashes between the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots and that should be a whole lot of fun for the British over there.

It's the Balkans. Everyone hates everyone else, and they let each other know it about once a generation.
 
What we need is the point of view from the Turkish side because this could have been a case of Turkey striking first before Greece could get the first shot off.
There have been several posts about the rising tensions between Greece and Turkey and it was just a matter of time before something set it off.
Greece is most likely to be a member of The League of Nations and Turkey may not be a member and both sides could have rejected any attempts to mediate the situation.
Another flashpoint should be in Cyprus with clashes between the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots and that should be a whole lot of fun for the British over there.
Yeah, could easily happen, especially if Turkey righly fears that the LoN wouldn't give them a fair shake....
 

FBKampfer

Banned
Lets not forget that in this timeline the US has a reputation of join conflicts late and just to to reap most profit.
This type of action will discretid them further, they will not be able to form solid aliances in europe.


I highly doubt that. The USA isn't in the conflict, and only sold heavily obsoleted equipment to them.

At this point, it looks (to the rest of the world) that the Turks took stupid pills. I suspect Turkey has something of an unearned reputation as a third-rate military. Even if it's not necessarily racism per se, the Germans are likely to accept the US answer of "we had no idea they'd ram their heads into a brick wall like that" as the Turks just being the Turks.
 
Part 73, Chapter 1075
Chapter One Thousand Seventy-Five


20th July 1954

Wunsdorf-Zossen

As soon as he got back to Wunsdorf Kurt had presented what he had found to Generaloberst Raus. The General blew his stack when he realized that the much of the German Panzers, which were less than a decade old, would need either substantial upgrades or replacement. It had not been what the General had wanted to hear. It was expected that the Reichstag would collectively have a tantrum when they learned about this. Fortunately, he had already figured out how to go about doing it. Looking at the technical drawings he saw that the changes to the hull were minimal. Even with the extensive modifications that he had seen in Bohemia the size of the turret ring was identical. All that had really changed was the turret itself was wider to accommodate spaced armor similar to that already used on the Luftpanzer and to make room for the larger gun. Underneath, it was the same elongated hexagon that every Panzer since the Panther I had used.

Kurt’s thoughts were abruptly brought back to the present as Finster started trying to climb his leg. Carefully extracting the kitten’s claws from his pants leg, Kurt grabbed the black ball of fluff. “Suse!” Kurt yelled.

“What?” Suse asked when she walked in before she saw that Kurt had Finster. “You found him” She exclaimed.

“You are responsible for this little monster” Kurt said.

“Yeah, but he got away from me when I…” Suse trailed off when she saw the blue print of the new version of the Lynx.

It was a reminder that far from being interested in things that most girls were, Suse was obsessed with being a Panzer Commander. Gerta had said that she would grow out of it but over the last couple years she had shown no sign of that. Kurt had no idea what would happen if Suse attempted to join the Panzer Corps, but he hoped that having more than a decade between now and then would prove Gerta right.


Berlin

She might have clawed her eyes out if Ilse thought for a second that it would do her any good as she read about what had had happened from the perspective of others with the names carefully removed. Account after account of things that had happened to her and things she was said to have done. It was the later that was the worst aspect and it swiftly became clear why Doctor Glas had been reticent to bring it up with her.

“This doesn’t make you a bad person” Doctor Glas said, “You were in situations that simply should not have been allowed. You were not responsible, those who were supposed to care for you were.”

Ilse was in complete disagreement with that.

“Kat is always worried that she has the potential to become a monster like our father” Ilse said, “I already am one.”

“There is a reason why concepts such as age of reason exists” Glas said, “As I said you were not responsible.”

It was all there, Ilse had behaved savagely towards other children. Doing anything she could to wring out any momentary advantage, according to this the only reason she hadn’t inflicted the sort of injury she had seen on Alex was lack of opportunity. Ilse felt the same way that she did when she was having a panic attack.

“You are hyperventilating again Elisabeth” Doctor Glas said. How could she possibly be so calm? “We’ve talked about how to respond to this.”

They sat there for several long minutes as Ilse was trying to breath slowly through her cupped hands in an effort to regain control.

“Your reaction means that you understand the implications as an adult” Glas said, “But then, you were just a child trying to survive.”

“That doesn’t make it right” Ilse replied.

“It doesn’t, and it is good you understand that” Doctor Glas said, “But one thing that you must understand is that frequently there is a very fine line between those who are abused and abusers themselves.”

That was horrible thing for Ilse to learn about herself.


Ankara, Turkey

It had become the new reality of modern warfare, sitting in a basement listening to bombs falling on the city. What was galling for Abdullah Uzun was that he was in the basement of the Ministry of War. He never could have imagined this when he had had been a boy and had watched as they had defeated the British at Gallipoli. Even in that victory there were warning signs that they should have paid heed to. Starting the battle with every advantage they had fought the British to a stand-still and then their opponents had withdrawn in good order with a deception campaign that shouldn’t have worked. In the months that followed the British and French had pushed them back everywhere.

When the Germans had managed eke out a narrow victory they had wrongly assumed that the Allies would concede a victory to them. Instead, the collapse of the Ottoman Empire had accelerated as the British withdrew to Palestine and Egypt. Sensing weakness, groups within the Ottoman Empire that had centuries worth of grievances had revolted at once. When the smoke cleared, the Greeks, Armenians, Kurds and anyone else who thought they had a claim had grabbed everything they could as the Turkish Army had been in rapid retreat. Turkey had been reduced to a mere shadow of what had once been one of the greatest Empires in the world.

Anything but peace had followed. Turkey was beset on all sides by enemies and Uzun had eventually rose to the rank of Colonel. Now once again Turkey had taken a roll of the dice and lost. The stalemate that had developed with the Greeks was seen as leading to a final Greek victory in the long term. As the fortunes of Turkey had declined, Greece had been rapidly industrializing. It had been realized that if Turkey did not find a way to kick the Greeks off Anatolia soon then they would remain hopelessly overmatched in the future.

The sudden offer of military equipment a couple years before had seemed like a gift from heaven. Then the opportunity to force the Greeks to fight a two-front war had presented itself and it had seemed like everything was going their way.

Until it wasn’t.

Uzun felt the concussion of another bomb exploding on the street level as a reminder of that. The Albanians had gotten a message through to Ankara, according to them Tirana had been flooded with refugees and was coming under increasing air attack. For them this was turning into an even greater disaster than it was for Turkey.
 
20th July 1954

Wunsdorf-Zossen

As soon as he got back to Wunsdorf Kurt had presented what he had found to Generaloberst Raus. The General blew his stack when he realized that the much of the German Panzers, which were less than a decade old, would need either substantial upgrades or replacement. It had not been what the General had wanted to hear. It was expected that the Reichstag would collectively have a tantrum when they learned about this. Fortunately, he had already figured out how to go about doing it. Looking at the technical drawings he saw that the changes to the hull were minimal. Even with the extensive modifications that he had seen in Bohemia the size of the turret ring was identical. All that had really changed was the turret itself was wider to accommodate spaced armor similar to that already used on the Luftpanzer and to make room for the larger gun. Underneath, it was the same elongated hexagon that every Panzer since the Panther I had used.

Kurt’s thoughts were abruptly brought back to the present as Finster started trying to climb his leg. Carefully extracting the kitten’s claws from his pants leg, Kurt grabbed the black ball of fluff. “Suse!” Kurt yelled.

“What?” Suse asked when she walked in before she saw that Kurt had Finster. “You found him” She exclaimed.

“You are responsible for this little monster” Kurt said.

“Yeah, but he got away from me when I…” Suse trailed off when she saw the blue print of the new version of the Lynx.

It was a reminder that far from being interested in things that most girls were Suse was obsessed with being a Panzer Commander. Gerta had said that she would grow out of it but over the last couple years she had shown no sign of that. Kurt had no idea what would happen if Suse attempted to join the Panzer Corps, but he hoped that having more than a decade between now and then would prove Gerta right.


OK, how old is Suze? I mean, I am surprised she is not part of the trio with Zella and kiki?
 
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