Stupid Luck and Happenstance, Thread II

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Peabody-Martini, Sep 17, 2018.

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  1. FickleCrossroad Dormant Poet

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    Draft Nixon in 1964?
     
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  2. Darth_Kiryan The Númenorean Sith

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    OH FUCK YES!!!!!

    Nixon is Here bitches.

    Be an easy step, I suppose. 18 months to two years in an executive position is good training. Then again, 19687 like OTL could be just as interesting. Allows his skills to develop more.
     
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  3. FBKampfer Ardent Arguer

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    Wierd seeing a relatively liberal Nixon.


    I guess ITTL Nixon's here for fixin'?
     
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  4. Peabody-Martini Well-Known Member

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    Nixon is one of those odd figures who could have gone several different ways. A bit less of an inferiority complex does wonders.
     
  5. ejpsan Well-Known Member

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    IOTL during the 1960 Presidential campaign Kennedy was described as someone who was comfortable in his own skin while Nixon was described as someone who was uncomfortable in his own skin, what we are seeing ITTL is a Nixon who is comfortable in his own skin.
    The Nixon we are seeing is someone who's older brother did not die in his teens, his father losing the family citrus farm only to have oil discovered on it a few months later, his father grocery store going under ITTL
    ITTL his father does not physically beat him while his mother over compensated by being overprotective.
    Nixon had full ride scholarships to Harvard University and Harvard Law that he could not take and that was one of the reasons that he had resentment and paranoia to the "Eastern Establishment", ITTL he does go to Harvard and Harvard Law.
    IOTL Nixon did not have a lot of money until he went in to private practice when he moved to New York City after losing the 1962 California Gubernatorial election.
    ITTL he has an income from the family business that allows him to run for office without worrying about his finances.
     
  6. Darth_Kiryan The Númenorean Sith

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    Stupid Luck and Happenstance huh....
     
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  7. ejpsan Well-Known Member

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    The results of the mid terms has basically solidified President Harriman as a lame duck, which ironically may allow him to have more political freedom to carry out his policies.
    The new German.Aircraft Carrier is most likely going to be nuclear power and IOTL the world's first nuclear power carried was the USS Enterprise.
    Harriman's first priority is going to repair the image of the United States to the world so look to more humanitarian assistance and more free trade agreements instead of trying to gain military alliances, also I can see a push to thaw out German-American relations as it is not doing either country any good to be at odds with each .
    A Voter Rights Act without a Civil Rights Act is going to interesting and Harriman can basically ignore the South as the "Corrupt Bargain" has no more power over him.
    The main test of the new act is going to be the Gubernatorial General Elections in 1963 in Kentucky and Mississippi and the Mid Term Elections in New Jersey, Harriman can repair his legacy by fully enforcing the law which may bring some strange coalitions in where Southern Blacks may team up with "Progressive Conservative" Republicans on a reformist ticket or Moderate White Southern Democrats teaming up with Southern Blacks to push for more economic prosperity, or you can have Southern Goldwaterites getting white die-hard voters.
     
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  8. Sir Omega Lord of Spectators

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    Can (or would he want to) Harriman actually push a 180° degrees turn in external politics after his big speech condemning the European nations' politics and legacies?
     
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  9. ejpsan Well-Known Member

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    It is not so much of a 180 but more of an emphasis on the use of soft power like foreign aid and trade deals instead of military aid.
     
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  10. matzeskatze Well-Known Member

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    But the USA bet on the "wrong horse" in the Chinese-Korean War. And if you squint some, they were a large part of why China felt able to do it in the first place.

    So I expect that the "friendship" of the USA will be tarnished for some time. And remember, Germany or Europe stood by its friends, worked with the international comunety and stomped violance in colonies, if you could still call them that. So the USA, in my estimation, has a very long way to go to erode the European standing and gain her own good place.

    Not that they can not work on it. But I think it will take several years before real results will materialise.
     
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  11. ejpsan Well-Known Member

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    That is a very good point, what it is going to take is time and patience to carry it out and that has not been a strong point in American Foreign Policy.
    At this point right now the United States is basically on probation in the eyes of the world and the best way to repair its reputation is to be generous, cooperative, and helpful by being honest brokers working with other countries because it is in their own best interest to do so.
     
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  12. matzeskatze Well-Known Member

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    Good thinking. About the USA Foreign Policy, I think that the external action will rise in importance for the USA as an "easy" way to redirect interest from internal problems. And to generate an "enemy" that the population could unite against. Because as you say, the long game was not the strong suit for them until now. And with mounting internal pressure, I think the easy way out may be a poisoned path. Not that the President doesn't know it, but he is severly limited in what he can do.
    So how can Harriman get a new path in foreign policy when he is more or less neutered by internal politics? By taking time and being resonable? Or by loud and confronting noises as he blames the problems on others?
    Personaly I think he has little chance but to do the second as the nation will not give him the time to do the smart thing.
     
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  13. ejpsan Well-Known Member

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    I see no real adversaries right now against the United States, Germany is basically both a rival and partners simultaneously in dealings around the world with the United States.
    The only flash points that I can see the United States having is the status of Gitmo and the Panama Canal, and those would be Red Lines to the American people if they are threatened in anyway.
    But I think with the overturning of the veto of the Voter Rights Act and the results of the midterms that showed that the American people outside the South are no longer willing to tolerate the actions that has caused a great deal of violence and pain, and that may be the start of the long promised “Second American Civil War” especially if Harriman fully enforces the law and the Southern States try to resist it by using officially state sanctioned violence against people legally and lawfully exercising their rights and it is captured on live television.
     
  14. Jinx999 Well-Known Member

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    Given the situation, building up America's reputation with the rest of the world is going to be a long term project, definitely longer than the remainder of Harriman's term.

    Building up a reputation as an honest broker would require finding someone willing to trust you to act as an honest broker in the first place.
     
  15. Sir Omega Lord of Spectators

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    I probably accentuated this wrongly. Can president Harriman change US external policy to one of reaching out to the European powers he very publically demonized a few months ago?
    It seems like he was trying to build a legacy and secure his place in US history - his reputation would be tied to the current policy.
    I'm not saying that a future president wouldn't be able to change things (possibly using Harriman as a scapegoat), just that it might be too late for him to change horses midstream.
     
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  16. Rinasoir Occasional Author

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    "Only Nixon could go to Germany"?
     
  17. ejpsan Well-Known Member

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    It has to become more of a positive vision and alternative then what Harriman first put out, and then that is going to be the hard part.
    It is going to take small steps at first and only then if things go well can the Harriman Doctrine become a viable policy for the Americans.
     
  18. matzeskatze Well-Known Member

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    But how much can the current or future USAmerican President pander to the Europeans and others to get back into the international good graces? As I see it, the Segregationists may see it to pandering towards the Blacks and other unwanted ones. Like Asians and such. Would the USA survive this in this time without further harm to itself?
    Another point may be that the USA may loose influence in the South-Americas even further and the industry may screem about markets and competitors. So Washington has to do something.
     
  19. Rinasoir Occasional Author

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    Simple. You break the South.

    This is a timeline where the Federal Government hasn't ordered desegregation, hasn't had a president send the 101st Aribourne to help a girl go to school. It's a timeline where, on the surface, the nebulous forces that control the conservative South are stronger. The reality is the opposite, and all it will take is one US President with the, if you'll excuse my language, sheer balls to force those people to an actual stand up knock down fight to prove so.

    It will hurt, but no decision the US takes at this point in the story isn't going to hurt. The screw is going to have to turn a few more rotations before the US can actually start to get its act together and serve as an actual Major Nation.
     
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  20. matzeskatze Well-Known Member

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    Oh I agree with you, but would Harriman or other Presidents?
    Because if the South tries ACW 2.0 then the USA are shot on the world stage for a good decade or more. Not to mention what would happen, if say the LON tries to impose peacekeepers on them... How would the mighty of the USA react to that?

    Sure we, as the readers, know what is possible and how OTL played out. But for the person ITL the prospect of Civil War, Econoic Hardship and International Nannyhood over them is, Imo, a dark picture and bitter pill to swallow.
     
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