Stupid Luck and Happenstance, Thread II

FBKampfer

Banned
For curiosity's sake, How much of the US jet industry received a bonus study from the Nazi industry in WW2?

Wikipedia does not tell me much and I am not so much an expert here...

Not all that much actually. The biggest advancement was the swept wing, which isn't exactly

Germany had technically excellent jet engines, in that they were relatively advanced axial designs, which scale up better than centrifugal designs. However it's more of a case of having simply put in the work, rather than groundbreaking advancement in theory.

Sans WWII, US turbojets would likely have been even more advanced.

As far as aeronautical engineering, some of their napkinwaffe appear to have been area ruled fuselages, however given that it still took into the 50's to make that leap, it's likely coincidental or simply a case of the general planform being "in vogue" after the 262, similar to US prewar designs being based on the idea that a stubby coke bottle was aerodynamic, for some reason.

They also seem to have been aware of wing sweep's benefits for transonic flight DURING WW2, although for some reason never bothered to apply it. The 262's wing sweep was to quickly deal with CG issues.

They also had relatively extensive experience with flying wings and lifting bodies, however they don't seem to have been a significant resource for Northrop.






The biggest hobble for the US would be AIR's, and the swept wing, though that would come in time.

The REAL obstacle to high mach speeds is a sufficiently powerful turbojet, even OTL.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
As a caveat to the above, this isn't to say German engineering wasn't advanced, or even cutting edge in some cases.

Early examples of their radio guided bombing put 90% of bombs from the raid within 300m of target, with about a 100m spread laterally off the guide beam. This is a feat that wouldn't be matched during the war, even in daylight raids. The problem was that it was very susceptible to ECM, especially against the British who were probably the world leaders in electronic warfare for a few decades.

Additionally Germany was quite unlucky with their own electronic warfare efforts. Their Naxos radar receiver, meant to home in on H2S ground mapping radar used in bombing, was fielded almost at simultaneously with the British upgrading to x-band radars, which were invisible to Naxos.

The successor to their beam guided bombing unluckily selected, purely by chance, 45mhz as the operating frequency, which just so happened to be the same frequency as a powerful BBC transmitter that had hitherto been inactive.


Additionally they tended to pick highly descriptive codenames which, often derived from the functionality of the systems.


Their radars also suffered from their lack of a cavity magnetron, and their (unusual and inexplicable) delay in copying the Rotterdam-gerät, a captured British magnetron. When finally put in service, literally in the last 6 weeks of the war, FuG 240 'Berlin' was an outstanding AIR, and directly copied as the AN/APS-3.


Germany as a rule had outdated, but technically excellent and well conceived technology that was pushed to the absolute limits and even a few feet further, and found novel and innovative uses of existing technology to solve problems, whereas the Allies came up with a new solution.

The result is that, despite the sound principles, the general operation was often well understood by their opponents, and countermeasures quick at hand, while the often new operating principles of Allied innovations frequently took time to analyze before countermeasures could even begin to be designed, much less implemented.

Its an admirable display of human ingenuity and determination to overcome obstacles, and (fortunately) also an object lesson in their limitations and shortcomings.

Germany was beaten by mathematicians, engineers, and and technicians as much as it was beaten by quantitative superiority.
 
Sounds like my cat Thelma. However, she will also jump on the bed and walk over you if she feels that you are sleeping too long.

I had a siamese cat that when I slept too long bite me in the nose to wake me so she can have her breakfast. Usually that was the hour I have to go out of the bed and leave for my classes.
 
The appearance of Kiki's cat Hera was inspired by a real animal.

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Is the name Herbert Marcuse is going to show up ITTL?
With all the butterflies of there being no Nazi Germany ITTL, he is still going to be at Humboldt University in Berlin.
Fun Fact: He worked for the O.S.S during IOTL WW II and later moved over to the State Department in the same section that Nancy was in.
 
Part 96, Chapter 1519
Chapter One Thousand Five Hundred Nineteen


29th October 1962

Mitte, Berlin

It was a rare sunny autumn afternoon as Berg walked down the pier to where Kiki had moored her boat. From what was coming through the open windows and skylights, it sounded like she was playing the radio. Hardly a surprise really, Kiki was on leave until the next week and she was probably doing as little as possible today. The cat who had been Kiki’s companion since her seventh birthday was dozing in the sun on the deck of the boat, Berg did a quick calculation and figured that meant that Hera was nearly fourteen years of age. From the way that Kiki described her, she was a grouchy old lady who didn’t take shit from anyone and was choosy about who she kept for company. Nora Berg could certainly relate to that.

Knocking on the door on the side of the pilot house, the music stopped. A minute later Kiki came up the stairs and opened it. “You didn’t need to turn off the radio” Berg said, and Kiki gave her a puzzled look.

“What radio?” Kiki asked as she led Berg down the ladder. Fixed to the wall of the narrow stairwell were the Owner’s Certificate of the Meta and Mariner’s License. Both in Kiki’s name, matted and framed. Berg caught a glimpse of Hera vanishing down the ladder that went down into the aft cabin that Kiki slept in.

Entering the saloon Berg saw a reel to reel tape recorder, a binder full of what looked like sheet music, Kiki’s viola and a steel string guitar. The music that Berg had heard was Kiki playing along with recorded accompaniment. Kiki had said that she enjoyed playing music, but Berg had no idea that it was at this apparent level.

“Very well” Berg said, “I was wondering if you would join me for lunch.”

“I would love to but need to close everything up” Kiki replied, “I wanted to use today to air the Meta out before the weather turned.”

Looking around, Berg saw that all the surfaces had been cleaned to within an inch of their lives and there seemed to be a fresh coat of paint. The canvas covers that had been over the skylights had been removed. “What happened here?” She asked.

“A couple weeks ago I had dinner with Captain Hase” Kiki replied as she reached up and closed the skylight, “I told him about what I was up to and he suggested to the men under his command that I would appreciate it if they volunteered their time to put the Meta to rights. Next thing I knew, there were dozens of men cleaning, dismantling and rebuilding everything in sight.”

With that Berg gave Kiki a critical look as she closed the windows and skylights. She had managed to grow out her hair to where it was now long enough to tie it back with a red ribbon and was still wearing glasses that looked like they were military issue. Today, she was wearing an undyed linen button up blouse and brown trousers that looked to be made of the same material. With her relatively tall, willowy build, that look worked well for her. It had probably only taken a smile from her and those men would have stampeded to get aboard the Meta to fix it up. They certainly were the sort who would have known what they were doing.

It was all sort of odd because Kiki didn’t consider herself particularly attractive. It was not helped by her tendency to compare her appearance with that of her friend Zella. This was entirely down to Kiki almost becoming invisible in the presence of her far more extroverted friend. It wasn’t that Zella was more attractive, she was just better at putting herself forward.

“It sounds like your time in Kiel was well spent” Berg said.

“Yes” Kiki replied, “I also got to spend time with Louis Junior. They have him running errands that put him squarely in view of the American Central Intelligence Agency. I think the Americans know who he is and that they think that it’s a way for Captain Hase to mess with them. The games that boys like to play are incredibly stupid and wasteful. A five-minute phone call would have all of that sorted.”

“But it wouldn’t be as much fun for them” Berg said.

Kiki made a face and it was clear that she didn’t approve. Ever the idealist, Berg thought to herself.

“The CIA is providing the whiskey and cigars for the card games that Hase holds every week at a substantial discount” Kiki said, “While our own foreign intelligence service pays for it. Hase also makes sure that all the Enlisted men share in the largess.”

“Then it sounds like Christoff Hase knows what he is doing.”

“You cannot be serious” Kiki said as she closed the last window. That showed exactly how much she had yet to learn.

“You are going to encounter this sort of thing your entire career” Berg replied, “The BND gets to keep the CIA where they can see them, Captain Hase makes sure that everyone under his command benefits.”

“Does that mean I should be happy about that sort of corruption?” Kiki asked.

“Hardly” Berg replied, “But there will be a lot of times when you will need to turn a blind eye to it if you want to get anything done.”

Kiki clearly wasn’t happy with that answer as she took her coat off the peg. It was the same one she had worn in Korea and the fabric was sun-bleached to the extent that the original colors were almost unrecognizable.

“What did you have in mind for lunch?” Kiki asked, changing the subject.
 
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“Does that mean I should be happy about that sort of corruption?” Kiki asked.

From a military standpoint, that isn't corruption, that's an investment. If the CIA felt it weren't doing them any good, they might get an agent that would actually accomplish something. Kiki should have some understanding of that from a basic military standpoint. If she wants some corruption to be angry at, have her to a dive on the Reichstag. For politicians the world over, corruption is as natural as breathing.
 
From a military standpoint, that isn't corruption, that's an investment. If the CIA felt it weren't doing them any good, they might get an agent that would actually accomplish something. Kiki should have some understanding of that from a basic military standpoint. If she wants some corruption to be angry at, have her to a dive on the Reichstag. For politicians the world over, corruption is as natural as breathing.
This is a case of graft that is going on and there is a big difference between “Clean Graft” and “Dirty Graft”, what is going on is Clean Graft.
To find out what the difference is I suggest that we ask ITTL Speaker of the House “Big” Bill Stoughton, D-MA who very likely is a product of the typical Boston Irish political machines.
 

ferdi254

Banned
If she wants some corruption to be angry at, have her to a dive on the Reichstag. For politicians the world over, corruption is as natural as breathing.

There are countries which are in pretty low ranks in corruption indices for decades. Benelux, Scandinavia (i know this sums some countries up) and Germany being one of them. There have been pretty corrupt German politicians (FJS) but by and large German policy and bureaucracy is pretty solid.
 
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We've had two references to the sweet smelling, bitter tasting herbal tea. I wonder what Dr. Berg has Kiki drinking?

Roman chamomile would be my guess.

There are countries which are in pretty low ranks in corruption indices for decades. Benelux, Scandanivia (i know this sums some countries up) and Germany being one of them. There have been pretty corrupt German politicians (FJS) but by and large German policy and bureaucracy is pretty solid.

Of course, but I would still suspect that there is corruption.
 

ferdi254

Banned
Of course but there is a huge difference between „there are some corrupt politicians“ and „corruption is as natural as breathing“.

There are actually countries in this world in which the politicians, judges and other public staff are by and large fairly incorruptible. In those countries to start with you do not need a couple of million dollars before you can even think to run for a position in the national legislation or a couple 100k for a state side job. Or the payment is so high that the incentive to make a side income is pretty low, or... not naming a few more reasons why explicit and/or implicit corruption is a daily matter in some countries and in some not.

But the top ten countries in the corruption index... no „natural as breathing“ is not the same level as „as cold as in hell“ but still a far cry from reality. Not claiming that corruption does not exist, far from that.
 
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I am surprised that given the experience Kat went thru, that Dr. Peter Holz has not suggested to Dr. Berg that Kiki is at least given some evaluation for PTSD.
I would hate to see Kiki to go thru what Kat did and we see PTSD 2: Electric Boogaloo.
 
But the top ten countries in the corruption index... no „natural as breathing“ is not the same level as „as cold as in hell“ but still a far cry from reality. Not claiming that corruption does not exist, far from that.

Fair enough, I was being somewhat hyperbolic.
 

ferdi254

Banned
No worries agree on that. Just felt the sense to make sure that there are some countries in this world that are fairly incorruptible. Them being far from perfect (google FJS) but still having been to Russia and the Ukraine i prefer Germany. Even though they are that corruptible that you can live on that basis as long as you have enough money. Been there done that got the scars.
 
Part 96, Chapter 1520
Chapter One Thousand Five Hundred Twenty


2nd November 1962

Over the North Sea

Technology had finally caught up to the Pfeil much to Ben’s delight as the airplane entered the area that the Luftwaffe used for its exercises as he eased back on the throttle, letting Black Knight III cruise as a comfortable pace. The Junkers Jumo 010E-NB was a revelation. Ban had heard about what happened when the airframe was mated to just the right engine. Nine thousand meters, climbing and not a hint of the issues that the Pfeil had with the prior version.

Those issues had come from Arado looking at the Pfeil as budget attack plane that they could sell to the Luftwaffe. The result was an airplane that the taxpayers, bean counters in Wunsdorf and the politicians in the Reichstag all liked. It had been constructed of off the shelf parts that had already been proven in combat and it had mostly worked. The Jumo 010c engines though had been a bone of contention and very much the exception to that. The compact medium-bypass turbofan engines had originally developed for use by a regional airliner that had been cancelled and while they were adequate for use by the Pfeil as an attack bomber they had proven somewhat gutless in the air over Korea. Their key appeal was that they extended the range over the Avro Arrow which the airframe of the Pfeil had been based upon.

The Jumo 10E-NB changed everything. They had come with a host of other improvements as well as new things to be aware of. Most of all, Ben was finding out that it was a whole lot of fun even if he had to listen to Wim complaining about how the fire control system had gotten a lot more complicated. As they sped through the air at an unbelievable one thousand six hundred kilometers per hour, Ben smiled.

“We got contacts” Wim said from the back seat, “Identifying as British Navy.”

“Want to mess up their day?” Ben asked.

There was a long pause before Wim asked, “Why not?”

With that Ben opened the throttle all the way and the Pfeil had a new burst of speed as he put it on an intercept course.


Tempelhof, Berlin

There were two things wrong with what had happened. The first was that Kat had learned what Doctor Berg had tricked Kiki into doing and the other was that as it turned out the only way for Kat to have a word with Berg about it was to schedule an appointment. If Kat wanted to talk to Berg about Kiki, then she would need to make herself available for a proper examination first. It was unethical and manipulative on Berg’s part. However, no one seemed to care too much because it was Kat who was complaining. It had proven nearly impossible for Kat to give Berg the sort of tongue lashing that she deserved when Berg was clucking over Kat’s apparent neglect of her own health over the prior year due to professional reasons. Berg was used to hostile patients and because Kat knew that her Commission could be suspended if she gave Berg an excuse, so Kat had cooperated, and Berg had milked it for all it was worth.

It wasn’t every day that Doctor Berg had the body of Generallieutenant to examine and she had called in a team of Specialists to look at their various areas of expertise. The conclusion was that Kat was extremely fit for a middle-aged woman, a description that she bristled at. “You are forty years old Katherine” Berg said, “Age is something that you are just going to have to deal with. Though in your case, I suspect that your survival is something of a miracle.”

That was not the end of it. Kat found herself answering a series of questions about her family history that were embarrassingly intimate. Her father had been dying of lung cancer at the time of his death and her mother had died as a result of complications from childbirth. Her maternal grandmother had lived to old age eventually dying as the result of a stroke. Her husband had vanished, and Kat had no idea of what had happened to him. Her Aunt Marcella said that he had just walked out on his family and good riddance. Kat knew nothing about her paternal grandparents, Otto Mischner seemingly having fallen from the sky shortly before he enlisted in the Heer at the start of the First World War. She also had four surviving brothers and a sister, all but one having been the result of her father’s staggering amount of infidelity.

“We are going to be keeping a close eye on your blood pressure in the future” Berg said as she went over the conclusions “The suspicion is that hypertension runs in your family.”

“I’m sure that another one of my brothers might eventually drop dead to prove that theory” Kat said acidly.

“That is what we are hoping to avoid” Berg said, seemingly oblivious of the very real threat that Kat was to her.

“You said that you would explain your actions regarding Kiki if I cooperated with you” Kat said, “I am one of the people her father has tasked with keeping her safe.”

“Yes, I did say that” Berg said, “That absurd barge she has been living on and a number of other things including insomnia point to traumatic stress. I proscribed her an herbal blend to help her sleep.”

“I’ve seen the blend, what’s in it” Kat said, “That isn’t all that it does, the side effects are considerable.”

“Side effects that are mostly beneficial for her” Berg replied.

“Have you thought at all what a large violation of her trust this is?” Kat asked, “She will eventually figure it out, she’s a smart girl.”

“I know you care about the girl, but Kiki is little more than a child at the moment. Yes, she is smart, but she was also extremely sheltered growing up. Our goal is to protect her from serious consequences. If I had my way, she would be asking for measures more effective than what can be slipped into herbal tea. The problem is she has to ask, and she hasn’t been displaying a great deal of good judgement lately.”

Kat didn’t have a comeback for that. She might not like what Berg had done, but she understood the reasoning as much as she hated it.
 
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