Stupid Luck and Happenstance, Thread II

So far, what they were saying was that the stories that Zella had submitted were solid and those sketches that accompanied them were good. Maria realized that when Zella learned of this, then living with her would be more difficult than it already was.

She might actually have found her own passion. Good for her. Momma needs to learn to let her spread her wings, though. I can appreciate that a warzone is not exactly the place I would want that to happen as a parent, but given her general behaviour, it's probably safer than most places, since the army is looking out for her.

That was the context for when they came around a bend in road and Ritchie saw the sandbags, Panzers and a whole lot of rifles pointed at them.

It's possible that they plan to put the SFG through a humiliation conga, but that sort of thing has a nasty habit of coming back and biting your derriere.
 
Winners and Losers:
Winner: Korea it fought off the "Chinese Horde" and showed the world that it is an emerging power and must be respected.
Loser: Korea it fought a war on it's own soil causing devastation to the land and creating a massive internal refuge problem, maybe some other countries would like to have some hard working industrious people settle there.
Loser: China it fought and lost a war that they had no reason to start and now this is going to be the start of The Second Chinese Civil War that will tear the country apart.
Winners: Great Britain, Russia, and India as they will use the new Civil War as a way to expand their influence in China, Great Britain will back Chinese forces in the South who will be more willing to come to a permanent understanding about the status of Hong Kong, Russia is going to support independence for Manchuria and try for more favorable border readjustment, India is going to support Tibet.
Winner: Germany stood shoulder to shoulder with an ally at it's greatest need and showed to the world that it is still the most dominant military power in the world.
Loser: Germany payed a heavy price in money and blood to fight in a war half way across the world.
Winner: The Marine Infantry of Germany, they now have their "Sands of Iwo Jima" moment in the Battle of the Sausage Grinder and now they are going be safe from being reduced to a token force.
Winner: The FSR proved itself to be extremely valuable in keeping wounded men alive who otherwise would have died, and there should be some studies being done to compare the survival rate of soldiers from the European War who were evacuated by helicopter for treatment to the survival rate of soldiers in this last conflict who were not just evacuated but also treated in helicopters.
Plus the massive publicity that is going to come out about the role that Princess Kristina played in keeping German soldiers alive will increase their funding and getting the best recruits.
Loser: United States for being played like suckers by Chiang Kai-shek and his corrupt sycophants, the United States is going to look to be very naive by the rest of the world for falling in such an obvious sink hole that is China.
Winner: The United States for not abandoning an ally at the drop of a hat when it was very convenient to do so, and that will make other countries more willing to trust the United States.
The United States showed that their weapons systems are on a near parity to the Germans and are probably more affordable to buy compared to the German weapon systems.
The United States also picked up priceless intelligence and information that will greatly improve the defense industry in America.
 
A question arises after the last chapter to all those more knowlageble in international relations and law...
What is the status and legal standing of American civilians cought with the Chinese Army in Korea? And how will the USA shoulder / stomache their fate?
 
A question arises after the last chapter to all those more knowlageble in international relations and law...
What is the status and legal standing of American civilians cought with the Chinese Army in Korea? And how will the USA shoulder / stomache their fate?

Provided they are unarmed? They are, legally speaking, non-combatants of a neutral nation and should be escorted to a point of entry/egress so they may be returned to their nation (US Embassy in Seoul would do).

If it can be proven that they were involved in actively carrying out aggressive actions, they might lose the "neutral nation" bit, but would still be non-combatants and likely be held until the US can make an appropriate deal to get them to US soil (typically deportation with the understanding that if found again they will not be allowed to leave).

Of course that's how it is supposed to go, reality isn't so black and white unfortunately.
 
Winner: The United States for not abandoning an ally at the drop of a hat when it was very convenient to do so, and that will make other countries more willing to trust the United States.

I don't get that impression. After Turkey and China, I would have thought they'd be seen as political poison and their assistance ends up screwing the country over and destroying the government.
And, I'm not sure they'd benefit from the advertisment for their weapons. "not quite as good as German, but cheaper" is a fairly crowded field and they'd be caught between German products (proven quality) and Russian (cheap and sturdy.)
 
Provided they are unarmed? They are, legally speaking, non-combatants of a neutral nation and should be escorted to a point of entry/egress so they may be returned to their nation (US Embassy in Seoul would do).
If it can be proven that they were involved in actively carrying out aggressive actions, they might lose the "neutral nation" bit, but would still be non-combatants and likely be held until the US can make an appropriate deal to get them to US soil (typically deportation with the understanding that if found again they will not be allowed to leave).
Of course that's how it is supposed to go, reality isn't so black and white unfortunately.
Thanks for this. But I was asking about the technical operators caught in army formations when they are still with their formations and gear. Maybe even in uniform. Or even more questionable as a goup with some in and some out of uniform but still on site of their stations.
 
Thanks for this. But I was asking about the technical operators caught in army formations when they are still with their formations and gear. Maybe even in uniform. Or even more questionable as a goup with some in and some out of uniform but still on site of their stations.

In that situation?

Enemy combatants caught in an active war zone. Provided they surrender they would be treated no differently than the Chinese except for maybe being segregated away.
 

ferdi254

Banned
One question I have in mind would be how would this effect civilian first aid. It is in reality only a change of the last decade to move from „get them to them hospital asap“ to „stabilize first and then move to hospital“. And the former had been pretty sturdy in being the rule IOTL despite Vietnam.

This change in rules is actually saving a couple of hundred lives p.a. in Germany alone.
 
Part 96, Chapter 1509
Chapter One Thousand Five Hundred Nine


10th September 1962

Seoul, Korea

When Ritchie walked through the gates of the Embassy, he had only the shirt on his back. Everything that could be considered a weapon or might possibly have even the slightest intelligence value had been taken away from the Green Berets who had fallen into the clutches of the German Army. Huck had pointed out that they were lucky that the Germans had abided to the letter of the agreement that had been brokered between them and the US State Department. They had not been subjected to humiliating treatment or had something happen that would affect their futures, such as being photographed and fingerprinted. With all of them being either Commissioned Officers or Noncoms, General Hans von Mischner had saved himself a lot of trouble by just telling everyone that they were his guests until they could be repatriated. His sister Katherine, the one who had brokered the deal had vanished, much to her brother’s apparent annoyance. As strange as it sounded to Ritchie, she commanded the German Special Forces and as Hans put it, at the end of the day, Kat is a cat. She comes and goes as she pleases. The KSK ran smoothly and they all seemed unconcerned by her absence. Hans had commented that he wished that Alt Lutz would have run this past him first. Ritchie had no idea who that was.

The General had not been what any of them were expecting. Intelligence had said that he had joined the Army when his athletic career had not panned out. They had read Footballer and heard that he was a big man, so everyone had assumed that meant that he was like a Linebacker or something. What that had really meant was that he had been a Soccer player and while he tall, he was built more like a long-distance runner. Hans came across like an easy-going guy, but the presence of Sergeant-Major Schultz at his right hand spoke volumes. The fact that he kept control of someone like that suggested that there was a side to him that Ritchie knew he didn’t want to tangle with. That proved especially true when Ritchie learned that Jost Schultz was the older brother of that Marine General that had caused them so much trouble months earlier and if the scuttlebutt was true, had taken the Chinese city of Andong, then burnt it to the ground.

The Jarheads guarding the gate were a different story. They found the whole thing hilarious and it was the first clue as to what the 1st SFG would be on the receiving end of over the coming days.


Sinuiju, Korea

Across the river, the city was still smoldering. It had hardly been Tilo’s intention to torch the city. Just after three Divisions of Marine Infantry had fought their way through it followed by the 13th Army things were already a mess. When the fire had started, there had been no one there to fight it. There were also rumors that their counterparts in the Korean Navy had come ashore when everyone’s attention was directed elsewhere and had settled some old scores. The name of Andong itself was in reference to subjugating the East, meaning Korea. The Koreans had hardly shed a tear over that city’s destruction.

With the war shifting towards the negotiating table Andong, what was left of it, was something that they were prepared to give back to the Chinese in order to secure the peace that was being brokered by the League of Nations. What that meant was that tomorrow Tilo would return to Nancy and kids, life would start to go back to normal, or at least as normal as it had ever been for him.

“The Marine Infantry have never had a Generalfeldmarschall” Reier said, interrupting Tilo’s thoughts. “You might be the first Kid.”

“Don’t be stupid” Tilo said, “The Marine Infantry is only five Divisions, two of which are Reserves, odds are I’ll be sent back to the Third after getting busted down in rank to restore order to the Navy.”

“Perhaps” Reier said, “But the next time the balloon goes up, they’ll need a Theater Commander and it will be Generaloberst von Schultz, it’s a very short leap to Field Marshal.”

“What’s this von bullshit?” Tilo asked, slightly offended that Reier would suggest such a thing. Entirely too respectable.


Mitte, Berlin

“It is a sideways move” Her Mother had said, “Having you not always working directly for me will probably be better for both of us.”

Zella’s article about the plight of internally displaced Korean refugees had been submitted to The Mirror, a weekly news magazine that was a companion to the BT and was going to run in the upcoming edition. The magazine’s Editor was interested in speaking with Zella when she was available.

It was a bit of a relief because once again, Zella had been late getting back to University and would be living at home until a place in the dormitory opened up. Anything that helped maintain the peace between Zella and her Mother would be very welcome. Word had also arrived from Soren Yount that true to his word he had arranged for her motorcycle to be slipped onto a transport plane that was bound for Berlin in a couple days. Provided that it was intact when it got to Zella, then she figured that her luck had finally turned.
 
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FBKampfer

Banned
I don't get that impression. After Turkey and China, I would have thought they'd be seen as political poison and their assistance ends up screwing the country over and destroying the government.
And, I'm not sure they'd benefit from the advertisment for their weapons. "not quite as good as German, but cheaper" is a fairly crowded field and they'd be caught between German products (proven quality) and Russian (cheap and sturdy.)


The middle ground tends to offer the greatest economy of force though.


Say two German tanks get the job done.

Whereas you might need 5 Russian tanks at 40% the cost to do the job while losing two, or 3 US tanks at 60% cost, without losing any.

Especially for second tier powers, US gear is going to be the best choice, whereas 3rd world armies will probably opt for Russian gear due to simple cost constraints.



And remember the Burfords the Chinese were buying were only "newish", not top of the line.
 
Chapter One Thousand Five Hundred Nine





“The Marine Infantry have never had a Generalfeldmarschall” Reier said, interrupting Tilo’s thoughts. “You might be the first Kid.”

“Don’t be stupid” Tilo said, “The Marine Infantry is only five Divisions, two of which are Reserves, odds are I’ll be sent back to the Third after getting busted down in rank to restore order to the Navy.”

“Perhaps” Reier said, “But the next time the balloon goes up, they’ll need a Theater Commander and it will be Generaloberst von Schultz, it’s a very short leap to Field Marshal.”

“What’s this von bullshit?” Tilo asked, slightly offended that Reier would suggest such a thing. Entirely too respectable.

I can see that happening. Navy would go along with it, technically they are part of it, Luftwaffe would want to tweak the noses of the Heer, The KSK, might complain because of Kat but she could see the merits of it, Fallschirmjager, heck yeah. Anything the other branches could see that would tweak the noses of the Heer they would go along with.
 
His sister Katherine, the one who had brokered the deal had vanished, much to her brother’s apparent annoyance. As strange as it sounded to Ritchie, she commanded the German Special Forces and as Hans put it, at the end of the day, Kat is a cat. She comes and goes as she pleases.
Coming home to talk some sense into Kiki?

“The Marine Infantry have never had a Generalfeldmarschall” Reier said, interrupting Tilo’s thoughts. “You might be the first Kid.”
Reier must be looked at in awe by the junior enlisted, still being able to call a general "kid."
 
Reier must be looked at in awe by the junior enlisted, still being able to call a general "kid."

Nope even the senior NCO's , junior and senior officers stand in awe, remember he can say "I taught him everything he knows."

The difference between Reier and Jost to their respective commander is Jost will just attack you and beat you up, might even kill you.
Reier will steal your money, take your woman, drink your booze, make you enjoy all of it and then might make you just disappear.
 
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The middle ground tends to offer the greatest economy of force though.


Say two German tanks get the job done.

Whereas you might need 5 Russian tanks at 40% the cost to do the job while losing two, or 3 US tanks at 60% cost, without losing any.

Especially for second tier powers, US gear is going to be the best choice, whereas 3rd world armies will probably opt for Russian gear due to simple cost constraints.



And remember the Burfords the Chinese were buying were only "newish", not top of the line.

The US gear won't be that much cheaper, for a given quality, than the German, with fairly similar levels of national development, factory automation and economies of scale, the manufacturing costs in the different countries would be similar. Which means that the proven quality will be more important.
The reason why the middle ground generally offers better value for money in the real world is that the manufacturers have to offer good value for money to compete in that area. A company that offers a significant drop in quality for a price almost as expensive as the top of the range is not going to last long.
 
I don't get that impression. After Turkey and China, I would have thought they'd be seen as political poison and their assistance ends up screwing the country over and destroying the government.
And, I'm not sure they'd benefit from the advertisement for their weapons. "not quite as good as German, but cheaper" is a fairly crowded field and they'd be caught between German products (proven quality) and Russian (cheap and sturdy.)
Turkey was a gross misreading of the situation by the United States in which the Americans sold the Turks surplus ITTL M-4 Sherman tanks with the understanding on the Americans part that they would only be used for defensive purposes.
The reputation that the United States has of abandoning their allies at the first moment when it becomes inconvenient, stems from the Great War when Gen. Perhsing pulled the AEF from the war after the battle that gave von Wolvogel his fame.
As for things like tanks and other major weapon systems is is going to be more of a situation where you need to balance out how many hours of maintenance you need compared to how many operational hours you used, for example if you need five hours of maintenance on a German tank for every hour that was used in operations that is going to cut a lot of training time out of the schedule, compare that to the hypothetical example of the American tank only needing two and a half hours of maintenance for every hour of operations that means you can get more training time in.
Of course I am making this statement out of very little experience, it seems that every U.S. Army post I visited that had tanks it seemed to me that every one of those tanks were in the motor pool being worked on by their crews and not out training and I was told that this is what most of the time that armour units spend time is for maintenance.
 
The middle ground tends to offer the greatest economy of force though.
Say two German tanks get the job done.
Whereas you might need 5 Russian tanks at 40% the cost to do the job while losing two, or 3 US tanks at 60% cost, without losing any.
Especially for second tier powers, US gear is going to be the best choice, whereas 3rd world armies will probably opt for Russian gear due to simple cost constraints.



Military goods aren't really a free market product, logistics, prestige, interoperationality and politics matter much more compared to price.


Basically the US should sell their stuff to anyone who is not interested* in buying german goods or is prevent from buying german goods.

*and doesn't build their own guns


edit minor point: soccer players aren't really build like long distance runners, more like short distance runners ;)
 
I don't get that impression. After Turkey and China, I would have thought they'd be seen as political poison and their assistance ends up screwing the country over and destroying the government.
And, I'm not sure they'd benefit from the advertisment for their weapons. "not quite as good as German, but cheaper" is a fairly crowded field and they'd be caught between German products (proven quality) and Russian (cheap and sturdy.)

In addition to that Germany and it's allies know that USA will be causing problems in the future only for gaining a big of recognition as the big nasty boy.
 
Across the river, the city was still smoldering. It had hardly been Tilo’s intention to torch the city. Just after three Divisions of Marine Infantry had fought their way through it followed by the 13th Army things were already a mess. When the fire had started, there had been no one there to fight it. There were also rumors that their counterparts in the Korean Navy had come ashore when everyone’s attention was directed elsewhere and had settled some old scores. The name of Andong itself was in reference to subjugating the East, meaning Korea. The Koreans had hardly shed a tear over that city’s destruction.
Something tells me that the Schultz name will be highly celebrated in Korea in the next decades...That and the Andong name will be forever associated with fireworks....
 
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