Stupid Luck and Happenstance, Thread II

"We had to invade and take over their country to free them."

It's all so clear now.

Same in OTL

I was stationed in Germany in the early 90s. My wife speaks German, (German parents who immigrted after WWII) and likes seeing new place and people so we did a lot of weekend and day tours while we were there. (Always amusing to see the people who hate a place because there is nothing to do and nowhere to go are the one who don't step off the base much if at all) One such trip was to Belgium and the whole bus-load of American's were having in a little road side cafe a couple of villiges away from the Mardasson Memorial. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardasson_Memorial) An elderly gentleman goes to cross the road and slips on the curb and ends up landing pretty hard, sprawled in the roadway. He is immediatly surrounded by American's, helping him up, dusting him off, (I handed him back his hat) and generally checking to see if he's alright and getting him back on his feet. He had this smile on his face but as he looked around he said "Ah, American's?" We nodded and waited when his smile became a huge grin and he said:

"American's! To be expected, they helped us in 1945 and they are still doing so today!" and shook our hands and patted out backs and waved as he walked off. There were a lot of damp eyes through lunch and much trouble fitting all our swelled heads back onto the bus. To this day my eyes get misty recalling the grin and sincerity on his face that day.

A few years earlier I'd been directly involved in invading a nation that had been itself invaded by another nation had been abused and robbed. I saw where the initial invaders had hanged the base commander and as many other officers as they could find from the arch over the base gate. I saw the aircraft shelter those same invaders had gathered all the base personnel into and then poured jet fuel into the roof vents and set it on fire. The shattered lives and cities that were still recovering almost a decade later.

We removed Saddam Hussain and the Taliban from power and while the end results are less than satisfacory the military predicted the outcome as likely if the politicians did not do THIER job which they did not. Many did not agree with the war in Iraq, (and I was one of them despite predicting at the end of GW1 that we'd be back in about a decade or so because the job wasn't finished) few did about Afphanistaion because it was a clear case of getting to an avowed enemy of the US and the government that protected him. (I have strong opinions on that one too but that's not for here)

America is not always right and we are just as vulnerable as the next nation to conflicts driven by greed, and corruption rather than justice or what is right. But we in general have a better track record than some and we're trying to be better.

Randy
 
The key is going to be the 1962 midterms election in the United States on how the American people feel about themselves and how they stack up at home and in the eyes of the world.
It has been established that the American people are still very angry on how the last Presidential election was decided with Harriman making a deal by a hostage taking South, so far and let us stress the words so far, there has been no direct confrontation involving American troops.
We don't know what the domestic situation is in China right now and there could be a famine in the rural areas because the Chiang government is making sure that food is getting to the cities in order to keep them from rising up against them, like I said we don't know.
By now the Harriman Administration should be getting reports from the ground that they are backing the wrong horse and no amount of aid direct or indirect is going to make things better so either they find another horse or just put the horse they are riding now out of its misery and just walk away.
Like I posted before the most likely outcome in my opinion is that the Chinese Army attack against Korea is broken with large amount of casualties on the Chinese side and they are driven back across the Yalu River and that humiliation leads to a coup against Chiang Kai-shek which leads to a civil war and the Americans are stuck in a quagmire.
 
he Chancellor had made certain that everyone at all levels of Government were singing from the same hymnal book, with particular attention being paid to those who were considered loose cannons. Kat had been included among those loose cannons though she couldn’t think of anything that she had done to warrant such consideration.
Yep, Selective Amnesia is wonderful when you are in command.... x'Dx'Dx'D
 
Part 94, Chapter 1478
Chapter One Thousand Four Hundred Seventy-Eight


19th March 1962

Near Tongrim, Korea

The Army of China was touted as the largest in the world. What that meant in practice was that it was slow moving and ponderous but extremely difficult to stop. When it had made its way across the Yalu River the badly outnumbered Korea Army had thrown everything that they had at it but in the lowlands south of Sinuiju the lack of a geographic barrier had favored the Chinese. The Korean Army had fallen back to a range of hills around the village of Tongrim where the 3rd MID was in the process of digging in.

When the 3rd Marine Infantry Division had been tasked with holding the strategically important road between Sinuiju and Pakchŏn, Tilo had ordered that every Marine, regardless of specialty, drop what they were doing and grab a rifle. The result was that the 3rd MID was at full strength but its numbers were bulked up with hundreds of Cooks, Quartermasters and Mechanics. There would probably be a price to be paid after this because Tilo had stripped the Division of key support staff, but for that to become a problem most of them would still need to be alive. Tilo was trying to project confidence for his men to see, but he was finding it difficult.

Tilo had even gone so far as to go to Brig and take whatever hardcases they hadn’t yet shipped back to Germany. Even with him dangling the offer of a pardon in return for good conduct and distinguishing themselves in combat, Tilo didn’t trust them not to engage in bad behavior in the field. That was why he had kept them in the same Company and close enough to keep a close eye on them. Reier had told that lot that Tilo was doing it because he wanted to surround himself with the real ass kickers and if they thought for an instant that Tilo was some Staff Officer sitting in the rear while there was fighting to be done then they had another thing coming. The scary part was that Tilo had enough of a reputation that they had bought into it. While it was unthinkable that a General might get caught up in the fighting, if they were getting overrun then there was a possibility that it could happen.

Tilo had been told that reinforcements were on the way, but he had not been given a firm time frame as to when that would happen. The Japanese had offered to send an entire Army Corps to Korea only to be rebuffed by the Korean Government. When the Chinese had been saber rattling a couple years earlier the Japanese had quietly sent a few military representatives to lay the groundwork should such a step be necessary. This time, the Koreans didn’t even want that. As Tilo looked through his binoculars at the Chinese troops massing to the north he thought about how nice it was that they had that kind of luxury in Seoul. Nancy had said that she was in contact with the Japanese and German Embassies and was trying to work something out, to see if there might be some way to win the Korean public over. Not necessarily to the side of the Japanese, but to Tilo and his men’s. Sell them the idea that the Japanese Army deserved a chance for the small amount of redemption that they would gain if they helped the 3rd MID. Tilo wasn’t holding his breath, it would probably take more time than he had left to work that miracle.

----------------------------------------------------------------

The first probing attack had gone ahead as planned and it had gone about as well as Jonny had thought it would. There was a Division dug in along the ridge South of Tongrim. There was artillery in place behind the ridge and machine gun nests all along the front. The ripping cloth sound of an MG42 was unmistakable for anyone who had been in Mexico. The same was true with the clatter of the rifles and the snap-hiss sound of a Panzerfaust. The thing was that the Krauts had obviously improved their anti-tank weapons since Mexico because Chinese tanks were getting knocked out at five or six hundred yards where the old Panzerfaust 250 was exactly that, only effective out to 250 meters. It was fortunate that they didn’t seem to have very many of those or else more tanks would have been lost.

Jonny just hoped that whoever was in charge up there was smart enough to withdraw his men in good order while he still could. It was because tomorrow a force many times the one they had just stood off would be attempting to force the road at the north end of the ridge.


Tumangang, Korea

The elements of the 8th Panzer Dragoon Infantry Brigade and the 26th Jagdpanzer Battalion were the first units to cross the bridge over the Tumen River from Russia followed by the 5th Panzer Brigade. At the guard post on the far side of the bridge, a handful of Korean conscripts stood awestruck at the sight of the lead elements of the 4th Division crossing the bridge. Not just the Lynx Panzers, StuGs, Skorpions and APCs, but hundreds of lorries and halftracks as well.

Olli sat in the Commander’s seat of his Skorpion and whipped off a sarcastic salute to the conscripts as he passed. They didn’t know it yet, but the entire 2nd Army Corps under the Command of some of their greatest heroes from the Second World War was entering Korea. Looking over the splinter shield, Olli couldn’t see him, but Kurt was in the lead Lynx of the 5th Panzer. A few days before they had departed from Germany, they had learned that General of Panzer Dragoons Hans von Mischner had been appointed to Command the entire 2nd. Olli only knew him by reputation, he knew far more about his crazy sister because she was a close friend of Kurt’s wife.
 
Last edited:
Well this should be interesting, Lynx and Skorpion vs American patton analog or perishing analog. LET THE BATTLE BEGIN
 
No, Jonny. It's your leadership that shoukd be withdrawing you in good order.

Americans start getting captured, Harriman's served himself up a foul-tasting midterm.
 
Indeed, "observing" how their guns work too...
But the thing is Jonny is too smart to do that, I think that Jonny is going to do something to tip the battle to the Germans and Koreans because he knows that the United States can not trust Chiang Kai-shek and the KMT government.
 
But the thing is Jonny is too smart to do that, I think that Jonny is going to do something to tip the battle to the Germans and Koreans because he knows that the United States can not trust Chiang Kai-shek and the KMT government.
Moreover, there is also a factor that hasn't appeared in a rather long time, and would enjoy to get his payback against both the Germans and the Americans... And would pay generously to corrupt figures in the KMT to trigger an incident between the Americans and the Germans......

After all, the Señor Arbusto it has been too silent... And that is not good news......
 


This seems an appropriate theme for Tilo's division.

Well this should be interesting, Lynx and Skorpion vs American patton analog or perishing analog. LET THE BATTLE BEGIN

The M60 Pattons are new, and are unlikely to have been exported. Possibly the M48s have been. That, and it's a handy time to get rid of the M103s. That said, they may have some of the awesome-looking and OTL underused M50 Ontos

10-Ontos-Calender-221.jpg
 
IF the 2AC made it all the way across Russia and literally all the way around the Russia/Chinese border to the Korean border and the Chinese/US don't know it or discount they are even able to move all of it that far, Tilo just has to hold a bit. All the experience with the 2AC command structure, well KMT is going to be in big Kimchi right now.
 
Moreover, there is also a factor that hasn't appeared in a rather long time, and would enjoy to get his payback against both the Germans and the Americans... And would pay generously to corrupt figures in the KMT to trigger an incident between the Americans and the Germans......

After all, the Señor Arbusto it has been too silent... And that is not good news......
I like where you are going with that but to modify that idea there will be much more profit in having a multi sided Chinese civil war where he can sell to all sides of the conflict.
 
I like where you are going with that but to modify that idea there will be much more profit in having a multi sided Chinese civil war where he can sell to all sides of the conflict.
It's likely that too.... But in order to have such result, you need the Chinese not only to have been repelled, but to LOSE utterly and undeniably, and also with US intervention for a time , possibly even with territory loss,coupled with a possible Mongolian Secession, backed by the Russians, what would fuel further the Civil conflagration.

If you remember that dream/premonition of Kat about Tatiana infiltrated in the US in the 80's.....

That US would likely come from an US what ended up getting into the Korean War losing steadily rising numbers of men and equipment in the following years , then possibly the Germans intercepting or confirming the movement of American Gravity Nuclear Bombs being moved after some idiots were seeking a way to break the bloody stalemate that to the date it favored the Koreans and the League forces headed by the Germans.

The result? A Nuclear Crisis, as the Germans escalated with a Blockade of the Chinese ports with the collaboration of the Japanese Navy, and a quite clear threat that the use of Nuclear Weapons in Korea by the Americans would be considered the same as an attack in Germany itself, and as such , would result in a German retaliation with their newly demonstrated ICBM-SLBM what could be launched from any point of the Pacific and Atlantic against the US.

The US at that point, it would have burnt their bridges, suffering also from an increasing backlash in their economy from sanctions from European and other nations , and forced to back off in Korea , an humiliating result, the conflict ending possibly 1-2 years later, in a Cease-fire accord, all while China sunk into the Second Civil War and the Mongolian Secession War, a conflict that would certainly close the Chinese market for the Americans......
 
I am trying to think back about the event in that region in the past of this timeline, but I am not sure, are the borders very similar to the OTL ones?

Have Japanese, Russian and Chines ambitions in the past still resulted in the Tumen River being a border between Russia and Korea and China and Korea?

How do the Chinese feel about the Outer Manchuria and how do the Russians feel about them feeling that way?

If the Koreans really can't bring themselves to invite the Japanese back, the Japanese might instead be diverted to the Russian territory bordering China to discourage and ideas the Chines may have. There would still be bad blood there, but fewer locals whose feelings about the Japanese military can't be ignored.

I am sure that China's neighbors are all watching with anticipatory neutrality, knowing that they could be next, not wanting to give china cause but also not wanting them to win and idly eying any border regions with some of their people (for a given value of 'their') on the other side of the border and considering if it might become necessary to take those regions under their protection if the current Chinese government proves to be too weak to handle to current conflict. Certainly any disputed islands with Chinese claims on them anywhere will be up for grabs after a war for those who end up on the victorious side.

Of course any victory at this point is still a quite bloody war away.

The only saving grace of this whole debacle may be that China doesn't seem to have any nukes and are unlikely to use biological weapons after what happened with Japan. As long as nobody does anything really stupid things might be stopped from escalating beyond conventional warfare.
 
I think that if Germany and Korea delivers a massive defeat to China then the press is going to call the leadership of the Germans “The von Mischner Gang” because you have Kat and Hans being the head of major forces, there is Kurt who wife is a friend of Kat and Tilo who is married to Nancy also a friend of Kat, also having Nancy putting on her diplomat hat is a very good use of her.
 
Top