Stronger Llamas/Alpaca/other?

One thing I've been thinking about is, could Llamas (or their equivalent cousin) be bred to be "stronger, bigger, faster", and if so, in how long of a timeframe? I know a llama can only carry maybe 25% of what a horse can (roughly 80 pounds vs. almost 300 pounds for a horse), and probably pull (if it had a cart) - I'm guessing here, I've searched... - maybe 2,000 - 3,000 pounds per llama (horses can pull 6 times their weight).

Also, if elk/moose could be domesticated (I know, I've read some of what Diamond wrote about domestication - but, maybe steal the kinder, gentler moose and elk? :eek:), things like antlers, fur, and intolerance to heat need to be dealt with. If a moose didn't have antlers, would it be more agreesive?
 
Also, if elk/moose could be domesticated (I know, I've read some of what Diamond wrote about domestication - but, maybe steal the kinder, gentler moose and elk? :eek:), things like antlers, fur, and intolerance to heat need to be dealt with. If a moose didn't have antlers, would it be more agreesive?

Antlers or horns aren't really the issue here; if they were then cattle would not have been domesticated. It is that moose/elk don't appear to be herdable. Moreover, they live far from the initial city building areas (with the possible exception of northern China) and in the Old World would have to compete with cattle. Of course if you can "move" them down from Canada to Mexico, there is a niche for them as a draft animal.
 
One thing I've been thinking about is, could Llamas (or their equivalent cousin) be bred to be "stronger, bigger, faster", and if so, in how long of a timeframe? I know a llama can only carry maybe 25% of what a horse can (roughly 80 pounds vs. almost 300 pounds for a horse), and probably pull (if it had a cart) - I'm guessing here, I've searched... - maybe 2,000 - 3,000 pounds per llama (horses can pull 6 times their weight).

It would take frickin' forever for them to be bred up to horse status, but if an ATL llama was about half or three quarters as strong as a horse, that would probably mean a faster rate of domestication. In turn, that would increase the likelyhood of breeding a form of llama cavalry, and that cavalry would doubtless greatly increase the span of the Incan empire and maybe even migrate into Mesoamerica, making the Spanish Conquest conquest a helluva lot harder.
 
The problem with larger llamas in my view is that it would become more difficult for them to climb mountains, Therfore I think if we are going to breed them up, they should probably be exported to Mexico, where it might be easier. Finally I don't think cavalry would be very useful in the Andes, due to the sheer steepness of the terrain.
 
wiki on llamas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llama said:
The height of a full-grown, full-size llama is between 5.5 feet (1.6 meters) to 6 feet (1.8 m) tall at the top of the head. They can weigh between approximately 280 pounds (127 kilograms) and 450 pounds (204 kilograms).

wiki on przewalski's horse (?typical? of a wildhorse)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przewalski's_Horse said:
Typical height is about 13 hands (1.32 m), length is about 2.1 m with a 90 cm tail. They weigh around 350 kg.

So... a wild horse is about 2x the size of a llama or so, and they were bred up to huge draft horses eventually.
Thus it should be possible to breed llamas up to the size of a pony at least.
 
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Horses and Llamaas are very different animals, perhaps it would be fairer to compare them with domesticated camels. What improvements have camels undergone as a result of domestication? If Llammas were big enough to ride then perhaps Sth America would have had the mounted pastoralist/sedentry farmer societial divide which drove up the violence of old world warfare. Sth American development would show the results of living in a world where mounted nomads periodically erupted into settled areas with stunning violence. Things like walled towns and far more advanced and lethal weapons.
 
Sth American development would show the results of living in a world where mounted nomads periodically erupted into settled areas with stunning violence. Things like walled towns and far more advanced and lethal weapons.
Unlikely. The Andes is a long thin stretch of terrain, totally unlike the Central Asian Steppe that was the home to the nomadic tribes who invade Europe, the Middle East and China.

That is not to say that walled towns and more lethal weapons won't be developed, but it will be due to the clash of civilised states and not nomadic invasion from outside.
 
The llama's and alpaca's surefootedness come in part because of its size and proportions. The llamas and alpacas of OTL might not be big enough to ride, but they are excellent and surefooted pack animals in mountainous regions such as The Andes. Their size does limit how much each one can carry but being smaller does give them more stamina, they don't have so much of themselves to lug around.

My point is this. The llama's and alpaca's size is what gives them a lot of the qualities they are known for as small pack animals. If they were big enough for adult humans to easily ride them, they would probably lose many of their most desirable pack animal qualities.
 
I was assuming that (at least for this example), llamas could have made it to the praries at least. I'm just excluding the old world for now (it's not another "how can llamas stop Europeans" type thread).
 
In fact...

There were bigger llamas in the coast of Peru, a place of deserts, plains and more heat that in the mountains. They were able to carry people, and are depicted in Mochica and Chimu ceramics (Yes, with people riding them). This llama became extinct because they were abandoned when the Spanish brought the horse. Another cause for this was the decrease of native population in the coast, because they suffered the most from European diseases.
 
Unlikely. The Andes is a long thin stretch of terrain, totally unlike the Central Asian Steppe that was the home to the nomadic tribes who invade Europe, the Middle East and China.

That is not to say that walled towns and more lethal weapons won't be developed, but it will be due to the clash of civilised states and not nomadic invasion from outside.

Yes, you are right. But Eastern Patagonia and the pampas are a good place for this type of cultures. In fact, they HAD this type of culture from 1600 to 1870's, between the introduction of the horse and the occupation of this lands by the states of Argentina and Chile.

The probleme is there were no llamas there, as far as I know. But there were guanacos, a closely related species. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanaco). They were very abundant in the Pampas and Patagonia, and can (even now) be found as far south as Tierra del Fuego. I think that if the guanaco had been domesticated also, this could have taken place.

The probleme is that all this requires time. A lot of time. Horses were at first use to pull carts (around 2000 BC), and it took probably at least a thousands years for them to be able to stand the weight of a horseman (around 900 BC). And it probably took them other hundreds of years for them to be able of carrying a fully armed horseman, like the European knights.

So, if you want to have llamas or guanacos or other serving as cammels in the South cone before the arrival of Europeans, domestication af guanacos (or, if you chose otherwise, the introduction of llamas in the pampas) has to start at least around 1000 BC.
 
Admiral Brown: That would require a higher population density in Patagonia, Perhaps Corn should spread faster? Or maybe an entirely new crop?
 
Admiral Brown: That would require a higher population density in Patagonia, Perhaps Corn should spread faster? Or maybe an entirely new crop?


yes, you are right. The problem I see with corn is that it took a lot of time to adapt it from the conditions in Mesoamerica (if this is the place where it was first domesticated) to those of the high Andes ...having to adapt it first to the tropical lands of Panama! This is probably why by 1500 it had reached the eastern part of the US, but not Southern Chile.

I could see it being adapted from the Andes to Patagonia, but I not see how that can happen before the 1400's, as I don't see how the diffussion of corn could be speeded up.

After that date, it might have been adopted by the independent Mapuche living in Southern Chile. They would adopted it from their northern tribesmen who were Incan subjects, and gradually spread it eastwards. AND/OR it could be adopted by the guarani (who already knew agriculture), IF they can bypass the wary hunter-gatherers in Chaco. They could then gradually spread it southwards to the Rio the La Plata Bassin and then into the pampas. Or it could just be spread from the OTL NW of Argentina into the Pampas, and then into Patagonia.

The existance of a higher population density in the Pampas or Patagonia (or at least in the borders of it) could create the proper condditions for the domestication/adaptation of this animals. But all this would delay the appearence of domesticated Lamas/Guanacos way past the day of european arrival.
 
Not in the US

The alpaca laws in the US are so strict, alpacas could definitely not be bred here...

One first needs room for creativity, and with these creatures costing 10K apiece, there's too much risk involved...


John
Former USAF
www.realmilitaryflix.com

alpaca.jpg
 
I could see it being adapted from the Andes to Patagonia, but I not see how that can happen before the 1400's, as I don't see how the diffussion of corn could be speeded up.
Perhaps if there was an Andean empire that spread faster southward? The closest I can think of is Tiwanaku, but they spread only to the very northern tip of Chile, and they were uh, strange to say the least. Not big expanders usually.

After that date, it might have been adopted by the independent Mapuche living in Southern Chile. They would adopted it from their northern tribesmen who were Incan subjects, and gradually spread it eastwards. AND/OR it could be adopted by the guarani (who already knew agriculture), IF they can bypass the wary hunter-gatherers in Chaco. They could then gradually spread it southwards to the Rio the La Plata Bassin and then into the pampas. Or it could just be spread from the OTL NW of Argentina into the Pampas, and then into Patagonia.
Interestingly, the Grand Chaco appears to have held some kind of sedimentary society in around 1000 AD, or at least some society that built massive mounds of stuff. Perhaps this civilization could be used as a stepping stone for the spread of llamas?

The existance of a higher population density in the Pampas or Patagonia (or at least in the borders of it) could create the proper condditions for the domestication/adaptation of this animals. But all this would delay the appearence of domesticated Lamas/Guanacos way past the day of european arrival.
Well, maybe we could get llamas that could pull carts? If we make it so that Columbus doesn't find America, and it is then gradually discovered by Portugal and England/Basques/Scandinavia (from Brazil and the Grand Banks respectively) then perhaps we could have a few hundred years, plus the years from 1000 AD onwards?
 
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