Stronger Dutch Navy in 1940

[Riain]

But as it turns out building the BCs, or probably even CAs in the 30s would also be a mistake since by 1940 the tide had turned toward aircraft as effective large-ship killers. Even without IJN innovation in grouping it's fleet carriers into a striking force two or three Dutch BCs or CAs would be at the mercy of combined IJN task forces which included a carrier, or even operated within range of shore based naval aircraft.

Even subs aren't the answer, since without a gathered wolfpack subs just can't destroy a convoy the way a surface force can. And that's what is neded to dfeend the DEI, destruction of the convoys carrying the invasion forces. As it turned ut there were only a handful of realistic opportunities to do this before the whole of SEA was overrun.

 

[Douglas]

In the end, not much difference. The Malaya Barrier was indefensible without adequate air cover. Some extra boats would be handy, but it is unlikely that the Dutch navy would deploy more than a dozen or so subs into the Pacific..

I think there will be a huge difference. This is not just a few extra boats...this is an additional 4 cruisers, 24 destroyers, and 36 submarines. Granted, not all of these will be stationed in the East Indies, but the majority of them will be. Figure on an extra three cruisers, 16 destroyers, and 24 submarines.

A sizable Dutch navy could be a catalyst for other actions which would increase the effectiveness of the resistance against the Japanese. Such a fleet may lead to the formation of the ABD naval command before the war (ABDA without the US). This command could shake down some of the procedures involved in making a multinational fleet into a fighting force. Force Z could become part of this ABD command, and this may influence its actions one fighting starts, not throwing itself away like IOTL. The USN ships that join ABD to make it ABDA would enhance it's strength without throwing established procedures out of balance. Such a command would be far more effective in fighting the Japanese once the war started, and I think the IJN would have to stop some of the things it was doing to hunt it down and destroy it.

However even with such a strong Dutch navy, combined with Force Z and the rest of the ABDA force and experienced in working cooperatively, would be no match for the forces the IJN deployed into the area. Perhaps it could sinks some important IJN ships, stop or delay a landing or two and rob one or two others of naval support. But in the end the IJN could hunt it down and kill it. Nagumo was off Darwin on Feb 19, he could find the ABDA fleet and conduct massed strikes against it instead.

The biggest difference will be in IJN planning. The Japanese will have to increase the forces they send south to attack Malaya and the East Indies to match another three heavy cruisers and dozen-plus destroyers. You could send more heavy cruisers, but what seems more likely is that the Kongos sailing with the fleet that strikes Pearl Harbor will have to be sent south as "cruiser-killers". Is the IJN really willing to risk an attack on Pearl Harbor without even modest battleline support? I don't think so.

Another possibility for the Japanese is to divert two carriers (Zuikaku, Shokaku) from the Pearl Harbor strike for a strike on this Dutch fleet, or on the British heavy units supporting. Would be an interesting twist: even as the entire Dutch fleet gets Pearl Harbor-ed, some of the American battleships in Hawaii will survive with less damage, and come back into service sooner...

 

[Parma]

Douglas, you also get the piont.
Sure there will be invasions of the Japanese army in the DEI and Malaya, and the alies will be strugling in the defence, but the whole plan of attack of the Japanes Imperial forces will be different. They have to spread their forces between the Pacific and the Indonesian/malayan argipelago.

The heavy naval units could be provided by the Royal Navy, even the Prince of Wales and cs was destoyed by airial attack, this it still needed a deplyment of frces which could be used else where bij the Japanese.

Japanese goal was to invade the DEI and Malaya, to provide the Japanese industrie with the desperate needed, oil, rubber, aliminium etc. for the expansion war in china. The conquest of this enormous area needed to be swift without delay. If there will be a considerable fleet in the South, it can cause this delay in conquest, which could disrupt the whole Japanese war machine. Thedanger of over strech can appear much earlier in this TL than it did in OTL.

 

[Tyr]

I'm quite sure that the vast majority would be send to the Indies though a couple might be send to serve as escorts on the Atlantic. They would have been useless against the Germans and it were the DUTCH East Indies not to forget.

They're ruled by the Dutch but they aren't part of the Netherlands.
Their core lands come first and foremost.

It would depend in large part where they are deployed to begin with. It was said here they'd be in the NL with the German invasion- redeploying to the east here would not be on.
If they were already there though they could stay.

 

[Douglas]

They're ruled by the Dutch but they aren't part of the Netherlands.
Their core lands come first and foremost.

It would depend in large part where they are deployed to begin with. It was said here they'd be in the NL with the German invasion- redeploying to the east here would not be on.
If they were already there though they could stay.

There is no question that the majority of these ships would already be in the East Indies in 1940.

Here's the Dutch Navy's surface fleet OOB in 1940:

Europe:
2 CL ( 1 not completed)
5 DD (4 building)

East Indies:
3 CL
7 DD

Limiting it to actual ships in service, you get 1-1 CL-DD vs. 3-7...pretty obvious that the heart of the Dutch Navy was in the East Indies, especially considering that the destroyer in Europe was back for a refit.

 

[HJ Tulp]

They're ruled by the Dutch but they aren't part of the Netherlands.
Their core lands come first and foremost.

It would depend in large part where they are deployed to begin with. It was said here they'd be in the NL with the German invasion- redeploying to the east here would not be on.
If they were already there though they could stay.

The DEI was the Dutch crownjewel. Even more so then India was for the UK considering the fact that the other Dutch possesion were negible compared to the Indies. Furthermore, for the Navy the Indies were always of the upmost importance. The Indies had it's own Army but no Navy.

Like I said, the Navy would have been USELESS for the liberation of the mainland but vital to defending the East Indies.

 

[eltf177]

This topic was brought up on one of the Warship Forums. One of my questions was, beside the finantial problems, could the Dutch even begin to scrape up enough sailors to man these ships? And the infrastructure in the NEI certainly needed to be expanded to support these ships as wel.

And as mentioned, without adequate aircover these ships are doomed.

 

[Markus]

But as it turns out building the BCs, or probably even CAs in the 30s would also be a mistake since by 1940 the tide had turned toward aircraft as effective large-ship killers.

IMO the BC-plan would have failed anyway. The BCs would have beaten the crap out of any CA, that´s true ....and obvious. So the IJN would have reacted. All they needed to do to restore the inbalance of power is send two modernized BBs along.
Their two oldest BBs are Fuso and Yamashiro: 35 to 40,000 ton ships with at least 12 inches of armour and 12x35,6cm guns. After modernisation they made 25 knots.

 

[Redbeard]

IMO the BC-plan would have failed anyway. The BCs would have beaten the crap out of any CA, that´s true ....and obvious. So the IJN would have reacted. All they needed to do to restore the inbalance of power is send two modernized BBs along.
Their two oldest BBs are Fuso and Yamashiro: 35 to 40,000 ton ships with at least 12 inches of armour and 12x35,6cm guns. After modernisation they made 25 knots.

But for the Japanese it will be a huge and perhaps untakeable step to commit any ship from the battleline before the expected big decisive battle vs. the USN. In OTL the Yamatos, Nagatos, Ises and Fusos saw very little action before PI in 1944, which was the great, and lost, all or nothing gamble of the IJN.

I would rather think they would try to stretch the use of the four Kongos or even cancell PH (IIRC two Kongos escorted the PH attack force). Anyway, IMHO the Japanese campaign in 1941-42 was a much more close run thing than is usually acknowledged. All that realistically could be committed was committed, all almost all that could go well did go well - no wonder they fell to victory disease.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

 

[Markus]

But for the Japanese it will be a huge and perhaps untakeable step to commit any ship from the battleline before the expected big decisive battle vs. the USN.

Steffen Redbeard

That battle is sort-of being fought at PH. The whole point of it was to neutralize the US Pac.Fleet for some time to be able to take the DEI, which was the target of the Japanese expansion. That alone requires the allocation of sufficient forces. After PH there´s nothing to do for IJN´s BBs, so they are free to support any operation in case the are needed.

I just check wikipedia: Two Kongos accompanied the CVs to PH, the other two covered the invasions of Malay and the DEI. They did so from a distance, because more wasn´t needed.

 

[Redbeard]

That battle is sort-of being fought at PH. The whole point of it was to neutralize the US Pac.Fleet for some time to be able to take the DEI, which was the target of the Japanese expansion. That alone requires the allocation of sufficient forces. After PH there´s nothing to do for IJN´s BBs, so they are free to support any operation in case the are needed.

I just check wikipedia: Two Kongos accompanied the CVs to PH, the other two covered the invasions of Malay and the DEI. They did so from a distance, because more wasn´t needed.

At least with 20/20 hindsight it would have been wiser to leave PH alone, as the USN wasn't capable of crossing the Pacific in force inside 6 months anyway, and without the humiliation of PH it might have been possible to conclude an armistice with USA before they enter the big crossing of the Pacific - which would just draw resources away from the European war, which FDR planned/hoped to be engaged in soon, or already would be by mid 42.

Such a campaign would have made it possible for the IJN to focus on the primary strategic objects, which all were in SEA. I'm sure they would be even more hesitant to commit their main battleline or risk the CVs, as they will need a creditable capacity to perform the "decisice battle" vs. the USN, if it chooses to cross. All four Kongos in SEA from the start would however have been a creditable balance towards two Dutch BCs, and even Force Z, if it is handled as awkwardly as in OTL. But the Dutch subs will be a huge problem for the IJN - seriously they risk breaking their neck if entering into waters patrolled by 36 schnorkel subs.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

 

[Markus]

At least with 20/20 hindsight it would have been wiser to leave PH alone, as the USN wasn't capable of crossing the Pacific in force inside 6 months anyway, and without the humiliation of PH it might have been possible to conclude an armistice with USA before they enter the big crossing of the Pacific.

IMO that´s just not possible. The Japanese need to attack the Philipines anyway, killing and capturing a lot more US servicemen than in PH. No way the american public would allow any politician to make a deal with an "inferior race" that just inflicted a humiliating defeat on the USA.

But the Dutch subs will be a huge problem for the IJN - seriously they risk breaking their neck if entering into waters patrolled by 36 schnorkel subs.

??? I assume you read Clay Blair´s books? He rejects the idea of subs being useful for defending an invasion. And even in 1944 snorkels were far from being as good as people think, but given the very poor japanese ASW it might have worked. If the Japanese don´t come up with something. IMO having 30+ modern and modernized subs in the DEI for many years with the explicit mission to counter a japanese threat the Japanese will re-act.

Still, it´s a hell of an ambitious and expensive plan in a time(1920´s) when everybody is rather downsizing fleets.


edit: Just to give you guys an idea of the scope of the plan, I dug up some info on the inter-war Dutch Navy.

Cruisers: Two were old, three were new and all five were a bit on the small side, especially the new ones.
You want them to have four 10,000 tonners with 8inch guns and two 7,000 tonners with 5´or 6inch guns.
Destroyers: They had eight 1,600 tonners. You want three times as many.
Subs: They had 16 modern subs and three under construction. You want to twice as many.

 

[chris N]

Assuming that the Dutch did build the three battlecruisers and they were sent to the far east they would be superior to all of the Japanese cruisers. The only Japanese capital ships that could match them nearly would be the Kongo class. The Dutch ships were to be armed with the extremly lng range german 11 inch guns and would have a top speed of nearly 32 knots. Thus they would be able to speed away from the Fuso class Battleships. Should the Japanese reduce their forces on the PearL Harbor strike there is the posssibility that it might not be as effective as in OTL. This might result in the US Navy being able to strike back sooner.

 

[Archdevil]

As mentioned already, it was never the intention to fight the Japanese BBs with the battlecruisers to be built. Luckily, they were to be very fast (34 knots), although the range was not as large as the American capital ships, limiting their usefulness to the western part of the Pacific.

The ships were to have an excellent anti air battery, with superior fire control. Going by WWII, the ships would have most likely had the same role in a hypothetical Anglo-Dutch Eastern Fleet as the American BBs had in their fast carrier forces: provide anti air defenses to the much more important carriers.

A secondary mission could have been commerce raiding on the vulnerable Japanese transport ships.

Dutch submarines were very succesful in the early phase of the war, sinking roughly a ship a day in the first weeks. The prewar O-21 class was certainly not inferior to the German Type VII.

 

[Douglas]

With such a large Dutch fleet in the DEI, the Americans might make the interesting-in-a-lose-them-on-Day-One decision that they almost made in OTL of basing one of the fleet carriers along with a cruiser division and an extra bunch of DDs in the Philippines, since ABDA now looks like a delaying force to be reckoned with.

So instead of PH, the Japanese carriers strike Singapore and Manila on Day One, send in extra Kongos and cruisers to take care of the Dutch cruisers and destroyers, and then wait for the Decisive Battle (TM)...certainly a cooler WW2 in the Pacific if you ask me.

 

[Markus]

The only Japanese capital ships that could match them nearly would be the Kongo class.

And two of them happened to be around. By the way, a Kongo overmatched the lightly armed and armoured dutch BBs.

Thus they would be able to speed away from the Fuso class Battleships.

In which case the Japanese win and the Dutch loose. The Dutch need to get past the Fusos to the transports and troopships to defeat the invasion.

 

[Parma]

A wath if,if Dutch politicians took the defence of its colonies more seroius.
No major efect on other things...

Dutch Parliament accept a fleetplan on 26 October after much debate and never seen oposition thoughout the nation. A pettitionement of more than 1 milion paragraphs of civilians who where againt this investments in a navy while the big nations are negotiating for a reduction of their fleets and prefent a further arms race. That the Dutch royal navy was equipt with complete obsolete armed cruisers and coastal defence ships from the turn of the century. And the navy operated in an theatre larger than europe was a detail that was lost by the enthousiast pacifists.
The fleet law was accepted with 52 angainst 48, even within political parties ther was resistance.
The law consist in a building program of aproximately 5 years.
4 light cruisers.

20 submarines
24 destroyers
6 minelayers
6 minesweepers
auxilary ships
72 Seaplanes
extensive expasion of the base Tandjong Priok to handle surfaceships, submarines and planes, north of island Java.
http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/

The 4 cruisers were enlarged Java class cruisers, the were simialr as OTL ''de Ruyter'' only with 8 x 15 cm guns, as normal for thes type of ships.
Together with the ''Java'' and ''Sumatra'' they would form two cruiser squadrons.
Destroyers were of the OTL Admiral class, similar as Royal Navy Amzon class.
Secretary of finance Mr Coleijn was one of the major supporters of this fleet plan. This proved to be esential in later years when he even become prime minister. His normal policy was of budget cuts and refuse of spending.

The long term effect of this was that the navy contiued to excist instead of beiing broken down as in OTL. This fleet plan also obligth next cabinets to maintain modernise and even expand the navy. It would also give the DUtch gouverment a better position in future crises situation in where the gouverment was forced to give up his neutrality and to join alies, even this was not seen by most people at that time. Especialy not the pacifist or socialists.
Submarines were build in what turned out in 4 classes and whitin 6 years. Every class an improved version of the predecesing.
class1=O9 OTL, double calibre torpedo
class2=O12 OTL, single calbre torpedo
class3=KIV OTL, patrly welded hull.

By 1928 there was a small but modern fleet cruising the water of the Dutch East indies.
Since the Navy was so ''generous'' treated the Army wanted a shear as well. It was granted in the form of a royal Air force and some planes and a defense line along the river Ijssel, and Waal. Consisting of concrete bukers for shelter, mg post and gun positions. The guns came of the scraped armored cruisers and coastal defense ships, it could not to be too expesive.

In 1930, again after much debate, was desided that the ''Java'' and ''Sumatra'' needed replacement by larger and modern units. This would beenlarged ''de Ruyter'' like OTL ''Eendracht''.
It would also give a boost to the ship building industrie who sufferd hard from the economic depression.
As Japan acted more and more agressive during thise years in China and the increase in dictatures around Europe there was as well an extensive modernisation and expansion program acepted.
12 more destroyers were ordered '' otl Callenburg class'' , 2 large destroyers or flotila leaders, otl ''Tromp class'' and 18 more submarines OTL O19 class which would be equiped with full working snorting device as was used in prevous boats but on a smaller scale.
As aircover would 80 Fokker TV bomber-aircruiser be used and late G1.
The Do Wall would replaced by Do 24 seaplanes

Due excisting of a serius fleet in this TL I make that investments in the navy, army and airforce is, despite budget cuts and penny wise policy, more consequent and a few years ahead of OTL. I make the building of the''Eendracht class'' come 8 years earlier as OTL. The construction of thes ships could give evidence that gouverment support to the natianal industire pays it self back. By this I make that the Dutch gouverment support the Aviation industie as well earlier. There for the Fokker TV bomber would appere in 1933 in stead of 1936. And a sucsesor the G1 also earlier and this plane more as a long ranhe fighter/bomber for the far East than as a fighter for the Home land.
(Eendracht)

 

[Parma]

Admiralen class Destroyers build in the Twenties

 

[Parma]

Callenburg class destroyers build early Thirties

 

[Parma]

Tromp class flotilla leaders, light cruisers or heavy destroyers