Strasserist German-Soviet Alliance Impact on WWII?

In short, Gregor Strasser was a Nazi member high up among the party but more to the left of Hitler, i.e. he didn't view Jews from a racial ethnic inferioriority perspective but rather from an economic anti capitalist manner, and I don't remember where I read it but he also might have been open to more Soviet relations with Germany. Unfortunately for him he was killed by Hitler in the Night of the Long Knives.

Supposing Strasser took over instead of Hitler and Strasser did actually manage to form a proper alliance with the Soviets, who were led by Stalin and Stalinism arguably had a lot of overlap with fascism (and possibly Strasserism and Stalinism might have more in common), how would you see the world reacting? And what possible effects it would have if the West went to war with he Germans and Soviets?

I assume the war would start over something like the German and Soviets swallowing up central and Eastern Europe and the West would put a stop to it once they invade Poland, Romania, or whatever.

How do you see that pan out? The combined German and Soviet armies, equipment, industries, technologies, and leadership against the West. Would countries like Italy, Spain and Japan (maybe China might join the new Axis then) join the Allies? Any possible decisive battles you can think of that'd take place in the war? Would we see jets or even better tanks, assault rifles, etc.? Would the war be as bloody if not bloodier than OTL WWII (I can definitely see the Americans taking a beating)? How would it end?

I know that's a lot of ask but I just think this alternate timeline would have been a toss up. I'd really love to hear what you think.
 
Stalin liked Jews about as much as Hitler did IIRC

Stalin was quite the antisemite though I always thought it was more due to his paranoia and dislike of the intelligentsia. Still that does raise the question about what a Strasserist German-Soviet alliance would do toward Jews. Would they try to round up jews and put them in concentration camps/gulags and so on?
 
Stalin was quite the antisemite though I always thought it was more due to his paranoia and dislike of the intelligentsia. Still that does raise the question about what a Strasserist German-Soviet alliance would do toward Jews. Would they try to round up jews and put them in concentration camps/gulags and so on?

Something like the Jewish Autonomous Oblast except with forced immigration from Germany as well?
 
In short, Gregor Strasser was a Nazi member high up among the party but more to the left of Hitler, i.e. he didn't view Jews from a racial ethnic inferioriority perspective but rather from an economic anti capitalist manner, and I don't remember where I read it but he also might have been open to more Soviet relations with Germany. Unfortunately for him he was killed by Hitler in the Night of the Long Knives.

Supposing Strasser took over instead of Hitler and Strasser did actually manage to form a proper alliance with the Soviets, who were led by Stalin and Stalinism arguably had a lot of overlap with fascism (and possibly Strasserism and Stalinism might have more in common), how would you see the world reacting? And what possible effects it would have if the West went to war with he Germans and Soviets?

I assume the war would start over something like the German and Soviets swallowing up central and Eastern Europe and the West would put a stop to it once they invade Poland, Romania, or whatever.

How do you see that pan out? The combined German and Soviet armies, equipment, industries, technologies, and leadership against the West. Would countries like Italy, Spain and Japan (maybe China might join the new Axis then) join the Allies? Any possible decisive battles you can think of that'd take place in the war? Would we see jets or even better tanks, assault rifles, etc.? Would the war be as bloody if not bloodier than OTL WWII (I can definitely see the Americans taking a beating)? How would it end?

I know that's a lot of ask but I just think this alternate timeline would have been a toss up. I'd really love to hear what you think.
Ok, good POD, but when is the German government getting changed over, and when is the full on alliance going into effect? The night of the long knives was mid 1934 in OTL, but do you see Straser replacing Hitler before this or after this? Does the alliance get set in stone in 1934, or 1939, or just when?

Lots of good food for thought here. Subscribed.

Edited:
Ok, so upon rereading your OP a bit more carefully, I see Strasser taking office in 1933, Hitler is not to be seen, and then we can suppose better relations between German and the USSR right off the back. Is the alliance kept secret? Or is it publicly declared? In either case, in what year?
 
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trajen777

Banned
Thoughts
1. B of France similar (B of Britain ) with USSR aircraft support
2. Russia moves thru Turkey and invades Persia and drives to gulf -- perhaps also though Afghanistan towards India (Turkey enters war as Axis - Forced )
3. Japan moves away from the Axis
4. Middle east caught between being hammered from the north and German /Italian onslaught from Lib.
5. Spain comes in and with help takes Gibraltar
6. GB agrees to peace -- i cant see USA (GB only hope) coming in until 1941 or 42 or at all
7. With the USSR attacking India Germans in N Africa etc -- i cnat see GB lasting until USA in the war
8. USA gets Nucs in 45 --- puts some in GB and you have a cold war
 
Thoughts
1. B of France similar (B of Britain ) with USSR aircraft support
2. Russia moves thru Turkey and invades Persia and drives to gulf -- perhaps also though Afghanistan towards India (Turkey enters war as Axis - Forced )
3. Japan moves away from the Axis
4. Middle east caught between being hammered from the north and German /Italian onslaught from Lib.
5. Spain comes in and with help takes Gibraltar
6. GB agrees to peace -- i cant see USA (GB only hope) coming in until 1941 or 42 or at all
7. With the USSR attacking India Germans in N Africa etc -- i cnat see GB lasting until USA in the war
8. USA gets Nucs in 45 --- puts some in GB and you have a cold war
I'm holding off on my thoughts till I get the answers, but with respect to your points, I have to agree.

1. I also don't see Soviet ground forces in the battle of France, but with the unexpected fall, I do see a combined Luftwaffe/Soviet airforce offensive in the BoB, which I cannot see the UK winning.
2. Quite possibly, but are we talking in 1939, right off, or something for later, like planned for 1940, but with the opportunity to take the war directly to the UK's home land, perhaps this gets put on hold? Or maybe both are done?
3. Why? If the USSR is going into India/middle east, then they are not going into Japan's sphere.
4. The Med will be a vastly different theater from OTL, to be sure.
5. I could see that.
6. Likely, but depends on when each theater opens up.
7. Same here.
8. A cold war between an Axis European Union, and the USA + British Empire? I cannot see that ending well for the west, but you never know.
 
In short, Gregor Strasser was a Nazi member high up among the party but more to the left of Hitler, i.e. he didn't view Jews from a racial ethnic inferioriority perspective but rather from an economic anti capitalist manner, and I don't remember where I read it but he also might have been open to more Soviet relations with Germany. Unfortunately for him he was killed by Hitler in the Night of the Long Knives.

Gregor was actually a lot more moderate than his brother and had better relations with Hitler than Otto did, which is why he remained in Germany while his brother went into exile; indeed, according to some accounts, Gregor's murder had more to do with bad blood with Goring among others than anything more overtly political. Given that Otto was also the one who more or less codified what Strasserism was with Germany Tomorrow, it would thus seem Gregor was the one of lesser of abilities of the duo and thus you'd need them to rise to power together to have their ideology to win out in Germany. Furthermore, Otto was adamantly opposed to the alliances Hitler formed with the German Industrialists and Hindenburg was willing to use the Reichswehr against the S.A. as late as 1934 IOTL, so the brothers could thus only get into power via seizing it as opposed to winning it like the NSDAP managed to do with the '32 elections. To this end, their best bet would be for Hitler to die in 1923 during the failed Putsch, allowing them to cement their rule over the Northern faction and spread their influence into the others via the chaos of the aftermath of the attempted Putsch. Thereafter, they could then seek to draw or even outright absorb most of the KPD, which should give them enough resources to make a serious go of it once the Depression hits in full.

How do you see that pan out? The combined German and Soviet armies, equipment, industries, technologies, and leadership against the West. Would countries like Italy, Spain and Japan (maybe China might join the new Axis then) join the Allies? Any possible decisive battles you can think of that'd take place in the war? Would we see jets or even better tanks, assault rifles, etc.? Would the war be as bloody if not bloodier than OTL WWII (I can definitely see the Americans taking a beating)? How would it end?

I think this by far the most the most interesting bit about this.

First, in order to get a Soviet alliance you'd need to remove Stalin, who was notoriously paranoid of foreign factions not under his thumb and the Strasserists certainly wouldn't be; there are luckily more than enough ways to achieve this in the 20s, luckily. With that out of the way, I can't stress enough how much this axis changes the fundamental nature of the war. Access to the Soviet resource base and labor pool means Germany removes the biggest impediment to its IOTL buildup and running of its war machine, which was the critical, persistent shortage of raw materials and manpower. With the aforementioned resolved, the Germans would be able to build up much quicker and far more effectively, as well as keep production strong throughout the conflict. German technical knowledge and military expertise, meanwhile, will significantly boost the efficiency and productivity of Soviet industry and the combat capabilities of the Red Army. Further adding to their power is the extensive Soviet spy net which would be working in favor of this duopoly, which would certainly benefit their strategic actions as well as harm Allied(?) industrial efforts; guys like Klaus Fuchs can certainly sabotage the Manhattan Project, for example.

To get an idea of what this would mean, according to Paul Kennedy's The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, the IOTL Axis Powers of Germany (14.4%), Japan (3.5%), and Italy (2.5%) held a combined total of 20.4% of the global warming potential in 1937. The Soviet Union, meanwhile, held an even 14% under the same conditions, meaning the starting base of this ATL Axis has at least 28.4% of the global warmaking ability, which is nearly a third greater than that of the OTL Axis even before you factor in the increased abilities of this alliance, which I think would definitely boost their combined total up to 30%. The U.S. (41.7%) and UK (10.2%), meanwhile, have a combined 51.9%, which remains the same in this ATL. It's now important to note that the historical Big Three of the U.S., UK, and Soviet Union with 65.9% of the global warmaking power took six years to defeat the Axis who had just 20.4%, or a third of their abilities; this ATL Axis of Germany and the Soviets are two thirds of the Anglo-Americans. To say the least, you're definitely looking at a long, costly war that will reach into the late 40s no matter what, likely until American industry can produce sufficient quantities of B-36s and nuclear weapons to begin nuclear bombardments, if Anglo-American political willpower doesn't break first.

Now, with the base of the Alt-Axis covered, who else will join it and who won't? Well first, Imperial Japan is certainly out, as there is no real way to resolve the disputes between them and the Soviets and to that end it will be better for the Germans to just increase their relationship with the Chinese. To that end, you'll thus likely see an Allied Japan and an Axis China under the KMT, which will finish off the CCP before things kick off with the help of Stalin. Another is that Hungary will most likely side with the Alt-Axis, given they were willing to work with the Soviets IOTL 1940 to invade Hungary, as their interests don't exactly clash in the Balkans. The last one, that I'm reasonably sure of, is that the Axis will definitely make greater appeals to the colonial peoples as compared to IOTL, in particular the various Islamic ones they couldn't due to the Italians and Vichy, as well as the Indians thanks to Soviet connections with them. I definitely think Strasserism, with its similarities to Ba'athism, will play well in the Arab world. Outside of these three predictions, I'm not entirely sure and I think it could go either way.

The first option is that, given the arrival of a Leftist alliance of a Strasserist Germany and the Soviet Union, the Stresa Front will be firmly welded together and its first real test will be supporting the Nationalists in Spain against the Axis-backed Republicans, who are more thoroughly dominated by Socialist elements as compared to OTL. In such a case, I can see the war ending sooner in a Nationalist victory, perhaps with Primo de Rivera in charge as opposed to Franco due to the Falangists fanatical Anti-Communism. Undoubtedly during this time, the Soviets will be using their agents to further stir up the Left-Right discord in France, which will most likely be ended by Petain and others stepping in with the military and forming a new Fascist government to control France. From this point forward, you thus get a Latin troika of three Fascist powers, aligned with first the UK and then the U.S. as well as Japan. Continued Italian support for Austria will prevent it from being absorbed by Germany, who will thus likely turn to sorting the Baltics out with the Soviets in the meantime while events in Spain are finished. Poland and Romania, with its fanatically Anti-Communist Iron Guard and under intense Soviet-Hungarian pressure, will grow close to the Allies. WWII will thus likely begin from a joint Axis attack upon those two nations which brings the rest in. Thus, the Second World War will be known as a conflict that saw Fascism and Capitalism unite to crush the Communists/Left-Nationalists, with the Japanese joining in for 1941 and the U.S. in 1942 in response to German submarine warfare.

The second option is that the Stresa Front still breaks down, and that Italy still joins the Axis. In this case, Austria will be annexed by Germany in 1937 thanks to Soviet support while the Czechs will be dismembered in early 1938 without much ability of the West to intervene thanks against to the same Soviet support. The Nationalists will probably still win the Spanish Civil War, but this time most likely under Franco, in order to appease the Italians, and the Spanish will then join the Axis. The French still probably have a Fascist coup by the Military to stabilize the domestic situation, but they will certainly remain in the Allies due to the growing threat of the Axis. Early 1939 will see the Baltics sorted out by the Germans and the Soviets, almost certainly under the same lines of the original Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, with the Soviets taking Latvia and Estonia while dealing with the Finns while the Germans get Klaipedia and a Lithuanian puppet. Said puppet will then be used to set off the Second World War, in that it makes demands upon the Poles to give up Vilnius and such demands will doubtlessly be refused, resulting in an Axis invasion of Poland and Romania in late '39. From there, WWII occurs with the Japanese joining in 1940 and the Americans still waiting until '42 when German submarine provocations prove sufficient. WWII will certainly be a more confusing affair in the ATL future as reviewed by historical texts, due to obvious internal Fascist divide driven by Iron Guard Romania and Action Française in the Allies while Fascist Italy and Nationalist Spain in the Axis.
 
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Toraach

Banned
The aliance between Germany and the USSR happened in the OTL. In a cause of the diffrent german leadership, still differences between the two countries would have lead to quarels about the world domination, and of course the USSR wasn't a peaceful motherland of the working class, but a state which also prepared to an offensive war, so in this cause the thing which might have happened is a soviet invasion of Germany, instead of German invasion of the USSR.
 
Strasser was anti-capitalist but it is a serious error IMO to regard him as pro-Soviet. He emphasized that for "we National Socialists ... the struggle against Marxism in its every form is a sacred task" and that there had to be no suspicion that "we sympathise with the Marxist Soviet Republic and its Jewish leadership." https://books.google.com/books?id=8Y-QBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA42 He did for a while think that despite their ideological differences Germany and Soviet Russia had some common interests as oppressed nations, but by 1926 he dropped this and accepted Hitler's idea of an alliance with Britain and Italy.

Strasser's idea of "socialism" was in any event vague, and consisted of little more than a hatred of the "materialism" which he thought capitalism and Marxism had in common, and of a nostalgia for medieval corporative crafts and guilds. "What distinguishes us from. . . Jewish-led Marxism is not only a fervent national outlook, but something deeper: the rejection of the materialistic world view. ... We hate from the bottom of our souls the levelling, comprehensively idiotic Marxist ideology! Socialism does not mean the domination of the masses, the levelling of achievement and reward, but rather socialism is the deeply feit Prussian German idea of 'service to all'." https://books.google.com/books?id=8Y-QBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA43 Insofar as he had any positive economic program, it was mostly derived from his brother Otto, and consisted of trying to achieve autarky through higher tariffs, etc.
 
Moreover, Strasser's 'anti-capitalism' did not stop him from cultivating ties with industrialists in the early 30s or accepting donations from them. For a while, he was actually seen as a more constructive alternative to Hitler, who's 'I want the chancellorship or nothing' strategy was seen as obstructionist and as standing in the way of a unified right.


By contrast, Strasser argued that the NSDAP should be ready to enter the government as a junior partner with the vice-chancellorship. Hence why Schleicher, by no means a Communist or a Red, sought him out and attempted to get him to support a Querfront. In the 20s Strasser supported a more leftist and worker-friendly course compared to Hitler. Partly also because he believed that the Nazi Party would otherwise be unable to attract working class voters in northern and western Germany. He was still very anti-Communist and, as mentioned by the poster above me, his idea of what constituted socialism was quite vague, which applies to the 'leftist' strand of thought in the NSDAP in general (e.g. the SA's demand for a 'Second Revolution'). Strasser's own ideas featured a lot of romantic nostalgia about medieval guilds and corporations, which at the time was pretty en vogue in right-wing movements. That's less socialism and more corporatism. Thus he advocated a corporatist organisation of society and the creation of a parliament of corporations.


I still consider the scenario of a Strasserite Germany and the repercussions on foreign policy interesting. In my opinion it's worth exploring but I think we shouldn't overestimate Strasser's leftist beliefs. It's also pertinent how and under what circumstances he comes to power, and thus on how dominant he actually is in the regime.
 
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NoMommsen

Donor
From the last economical programs formulated by Gregor Strasser in 1932, he was - at that time - lesser a 'socialist' as more a 'corporatist', following in many aspects Rathenau but also modern economical rtheories, as deficite spending (he called it "produktive Kreditschöpfung" ["productive credit creation"]) to get the money for his work-programs.
Much as SPD-policies in Germany after the war, but with a focus on autarky and ... erhm, some "special" industrial one-time-usage-products (planes, tanks , artillery-"pipings", ...).

But Gregor WAS an adamnat anti-marxist/socialist/communist - ideological.
But he was still "pragmatical" enough to have his economical programs be dxeveloped in dialog with trade-unioners, bankers and industrialists.
Therefore I would assume, he would also be "pragmatical" enough to cut some deal with the stalinist Russia and Stalin.

However, unfortunatly (?) there are almost no records on Gregor Strassers "own" thoughts on foreign politics - beside the reverting of Versailles. Most of this would IMO have to be speculation.
...
OTOH : "room" for ATL-authors to project own ideas into ... :biggrin:
 
... can't stress enough how much this axis changes the fundamental nature of the war. Access to the Soviet resource base and labor pool means Germany removes the biggest impediment to its IOTL buildup and running of its war machine, which was the critical, persistent shortage of raw materials and manpower.

Now, with the base of the Alt-Axis covered, who else will join it and who won't?

there were 1934 coup attempts in Austria and Bulgaria, they might be successful with Alt-Axis collaboration?

not sure how viable Stresa Front, little Entente (Czechoslovakia-Romania-Yugoslavia), or Polish-Romanian Pact would be countering a CommuNazi Axis? certainly the historical Allies (GB and France) would be even more accommodating of Italy?

my view there would not be a Spanish Civil War, at least comparable to OTL? the Stresa Front countries able to collaborate at least there to keep German-Soviet colossus out? (GB and France willing to tolerate military/Fascist government, coupled with German-Soviet inability to project power there)

Alt-Axis invades both Poland and Romania or in quick succession. against this backdrop the German naval construction likely very different than historical with no AGNA? the KM starts building enhanced Panzerschiffe and u-boats while actually furnishing the large naval guns and turrets to USSR that they agreed upon.

IMO France fights on from North Africa with a neutral or possibly Allied Italy? the Alt-Axis divide Yugoslavia and occupy Greece, while Soviets occupy Iran after Allies attempt Operation Pike bombings.

the Soviets never wanted a strong unified China that might work against them allowing the Germans operating there? Japan was their own worst enemy, they certainly SHOULD be able to collaborate with Allies who want them at least sidelined in the war.
 
Oh. I actually had been thinking on such a scenario...

My idea was based on the idea that Hitler dies shortly before the Bamberg Conference, where he humilliated the Strassers and cemented the Führerprinzip as funding principle of the Party. This would lead to a break up between the Strasserites in the North and the Hitlerists in the South.

The Strasserists, with Gregor's pragmatism and organizational skills and Goebbles' propaganda schemes, find themselves encountering the National Bolshevik faction of the Old SPD and the KPD Exiles. Working their way with them, Otto forms coalitions with the Left Nationalists while they dispute the Volkisch far right with the Hitlerists, lead by the "Munich Clique" who become increasingly more and more relegated to Bavaria.

By the thirties, their program is slowly ironed out, by which they slowly gain traction with the SPD's more right wing elements. They retain the anti-Communist rethoric, while none the less making rapprochement with the left flank of the Nationalists.

Fighting breaks in the street as militias battle each other. In terror of the "Red Menace", the elites turn to the Strasserist NSDAP for help, but in doing so, they end up screwing themselves over. As by the time they take over, the "socialist" elements of Otto Strasser and Stenner's faction have won over more "moderare" voices. Soon enough, a Rohmist coup takes over and the Junkers are kulak'd, their land confiscated and reorganized in guilds.

As they consolidate power, they work on a rapprochement with the USSR, probably without Stalin, but at least with someone along his ideological lines and open to a Broad Front against Capitalism.

This rapprochement sends the WAllies into panic, especially as The Great Depression hits worldwide.

The Germans, as they slowly work to undo Versailles, start working their way to the international stage. They proceed to push the Left-KMT and the Falangists to form their own flank against the Capitalists. This enables new fronts as the Spanish and Chinese Socialists, Communists and Anarchists are encouraged by the USSR to fight alongside the Falangists and Left-KMT, effectively creating two solid allies in this Red Brown alliance.

This leads to absolute panic for the British and French, the former of whom begins to work on supplying the more Right Wing elements of the KMT as well as suplying warlords sympathetic to their interests.

Meanwhile in Austria, the Fascist Fatherland Front takes over the country in alliance with exiles of the remaining Hitlerist faction, seeking an alliance with Italy and it's Stressa Front. Allied with them are the Little Entente and an even more Paranoid Poland, plus Finland, all of which are supplied by France and Britain, also leading to a greater involvement of the Spanish Civil War.

Ultimately, what finally leads to world war two is to me four things:

- A Republican Victory, with the primarily Libertarian Socialist Faction completely imposing itself as dominant in Spain.

- A Hitlerist revolt in Bavaria as Austria attempts to resist the Anschluss.

- The explosion of a war between the Soviet Union and the Little Entente.

- Japan entering the war by invading China, creating a three-front war between British-backed forces, the USSR-German backed forces, and the Japanese invasion force.

All these events quickly escalate into a world war that sees Britain and France fighting alongside almost the whole rest of Europe an alliance of the two most powerful Eurasian nations plus Spain.

Who would win? Hard to tell. But with the raw industrial might of both nations, the possibility of victory for Germany and the USSR are high lest the United States comes in to play, a very hard thing to do if the Soviets and Germans successfully frame themselves as the victims of external aggression and explicitly ally with China instead of Japan, who in this case would be crazy enough to wage war against the Axis AND the Allies.
 
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