Stories from a Divided Haiti

I really liked this collection of stories, Haitian culture truly fascinate me, so close and yet so far from French culture.
To see a relatively successful Haiti is heart-warming because their history is so sad in OTL. The republic seem to be quite corrupt and I got a feeling the situation in Gonâve won't be stable.
And it should be "reine du drapeau" instead of "reine de le drapeau" if it isn't deliberate.
 
I really liked this collection of stories, Haitian culture truly fascinate me, so close and yet so far from French culture.

To see a relatively successful Haiti is heart-warming because their history is so sad in OTL. The republic seem to be quite corrupt and I got a feeling the situation in Gonâve won't be stable.

Thanks! The Republic is more corrupt at some times and less at others. In the late 1940s and 1950s, things are starting to improve - there's an atmosphere of reform and optimism somewhat like the Estimé administration of OTL - but it still has a long way to go, especially in outlying areas like Gonâve.

And it should be "reine du drapeau" instead of "reine de le drapeau" if it isn't deliberate.

According to this article about the Congo Societies in the 1920s, "reine de le drapeau" was the title used. I would assume that the French spoken on Gonâve was not standard French, especially since it would only have been used for formal things like titles; Kreyol would be spoken day to day.
 
Sorry, it's 1913. I've edited the post to reflect that.



Thanks.

By way of background, Gonâve is an island in the gulf between the two "arms" of Haiti. It was maroon country from the beginning. It's marginal land - landings are few, water scarce, the terrain difficult and the decent agricultural land a good way inland - so the French never did more than set up outposts while escaped slaves (and possibly Caribbean native refugees) colonized the interior. The resulting culture held onto a good deal more of its African roots than that in the rest of Haiti, although there was some French influence via the Haitian government during the nineteenth century.

The Congo Societies existed in OTL and are similar to West African cooperative societies. They originally formed for self-defense against cacos and pirates, protection of migrant workers' property, and sharing of tools and labor for work that requires more than one family. In OTL, they faded away during the American occupation after new administrative and farming techniques came in. In TTL, there was no occupation, so the agricultural reforms were adopted more organically and enforced by the societies. Also, under the pressure of a predatory government, the societies evolved into something like the early Mafia; they charge for protection, establish monopolies, are involved in minor rackets and act as a court of first resort in the absence of any real government presence. They aren't good guys, but they're less bad than most of the readily-available alternatives.

BTW, I'm planning for this timeline to include 16 to 20 stories, with the last one set in the present day. The next one, as currently planned, will be in the 1860s-70s, and then back to the 1890s and the Black Prince.

Hmmm. I never knew of the Congo Societies. In Haiti they really never talked about them. Wow I learned something new about haiti. :D Anyway what will the status of the North and South's military? And will there be any minor Dominican separatist movements?
 
Hmmm. I never knew of the Congo Societies. In Haiti they really never talked about them. Wow I learned something new about haiti. :D

According to both Hall (linked in comment 82) and d'Ans (pages 267-69) these societies existed only on Gonâve and in the deep mountains of the northwest where they were called "mazengas," so people from elsewhere in the country probably wouldn't have heard of them even at the time.

In TTL they are becoming a more widespread model of cooperative labor and, unfortunately, also organized crime.

Anyway what will the status of the North and South's military? And will there be any minor Dominican separatist movements?

Both the north and south have small standing armies and coast guards. The north's military is a (relatively) well equipped conventional force used mainly for border defense and interdiction of smuggling. The southern army is more poorly equipped and, depending on the government, may double as a rural gendarmerie. Both countries use conscripts in time of war; the south can draft about twice as many as the north. There were a few wars between the two states in the nineteenth century, but the last one was in 1907; since then there have been only minor border incidents.

The Haitis hold only a small amount of Dominican territory so any separatism is very minor.
 
Before the Battle



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“Advance,” said the Lieutenant, and we did.

It was hot, even in the mountains, a stifling heat that made the sweat run in rivers and sucked the air from our lungs. The air at twilight was alive with the buzzing of stinging insects, the chirping of bats, the rustle of leaves, the thunk of machetes as they cleared the brush. It was full of everything but the enemy.

“Advance,” the Lieutenant said.

We made five miles that day, maybe six, as we’d done the day before. We camped in a clearing by a stream; we washed ourselves and our uniforms, though the latter were so ragged they seemed like they would come apart at a touch. Only the Lieutenant laid his uniform on the ground before bathing, for if the gold braid washed off, what would separate him from the rest of us?

We slept, and in the morning, the Lieutenant said “Advance.”

“He’s glory-mad,” Étienne said, at the next night’s camp five miles further north. “He dreams that he’s Dessalines, the conquering hero.”

“No,” answered Pascal. “They took him from Port-au-Prince, put braid on him, and taught him one word. If he can’t advance, he doesn’t know what else to do.”

“Forward, always forward” said Josaphat. He was a Port-au-Prince man himself, drafted from the streets. “If we keep going forward, we’ll get somewhere eventually.”

“City people don’t go anywhere. To the shop each day, and home again – the streets take you only in circles.”

“And in the fields?” Josaphat asked. “Back and forth behind the ox all day – do you go anywhere then?”

“You can see in the fields. You can see in the streets,” said Romain quietly. “Here, you can see nothing.”

“Maybe the Lieutenant can,” Pascal replied, and went to sleep.

The next day was downhill from the night’s high mountain camp, into a valley with a swift-flowing river. We lost two hours crossing it, and we lost Sylvain – a shy Jacmel city boy who never said a word, and who was silent even as the waters carried him away and drowned him. “Advance,” the Lieutenant said, but we would go no farther that day; we sprawled, exhausted, beside the river that was Sylvain’s burial place.

“We should kill him,” whispered Josaphat. We all whispered here, though with the enemy nowhere to be seen, there was no reason to do so. It was quiet in these mountains, preternaturally so to southern ears; in the Republic, crofts went far up the hillside and peasants went still farther gathering wood for charcoal, but these hills were empty and graveyard-still. Their silence infected us.

“We should kill him,” Josaphat continued. “Kill him and go back. Do we all march to our death just because he tells us to?”

“Do you know the way back?” Romain challenged. Josaphat didn’t; none of us did. Maybe, if we’d turned back the first day we were separated from the army, we could have found it again, but now we were utterly lost. “And where would we go if we went back, but to our deaths?”

“To the army. To fight.”

“To die,” Pascal said firmly. “The generals know no more words than our lieutenant. Advance! Bury them with men and then bury their corpses. Sixty thousand of ours to beat ten thousand of theirs, even if half of us die in the doing. And those are the lucky regiments. The unlucky ones… beaten, separated. Driven into the jungle.”

“Maybe, now that we’ve been unlucky once, we will be lucky?” That was Alexandre, the youngest: sixteen, he said, though he was likely younger than that.

“If the world were just, maybe so,” answered Étienne. “But the world isn’t just, and bad luck piles on bad. There is only death now on the Artibonite plains. Better to stay in the mountains and follow our glory-mad officer. Maybe we will end up somewhere.”

He looked up, and we realized that the Lieutenant was standing behind him, had been standing there all along. He was silent, with the gold braid on his shoulder, and said nothing about Josaphat’s plan to kill him; there was no talk of court-martials or firing squads, as there might have been were we still with the army in Artibonite. The law, even martial law, had no place here.

“Tomorrow we will advance,” he said.

We did. It was uphill again. Dye mon, gen mon: beyond the mountain is another mountain.

At midday the forest opened, and there were buildings: a plantation house, a village, a small stone church. We’d been told that the northerners lived like this, plantation-hands rather than crofters, serfs in fact even if no longer in law. But none of them were there. The buildings stood abandoned, and though crops were in the fields and the houses showed signs of recent use, there was nothing to show where the people had gone.

“They fled from us,” said Josaphat. “They heard us coming, and didn’t want to be shot.”

“Where are their tracks, then?”

“They covered them. They don’t want us to follow.”

“Someone magicked them out,” Alexandre answered. “A sorcerer, a houngan. And when we leave, he’ll magic them back.”

“Ridiculous!” Josaphat said. He didn’t whisper. “The houngans are charlatans, every one. I’ve never met one who can make even a mouse disappear.”

“At home, maybe,” said Alexandre, though he seemed unsure. “Here, though – in the north, the sorcerers are real.”

Child though Alexandre was, we all felt a chill – even Josaphat, though he would never admit it. He was only saying what we’d all been told: that the north was a land of dark magic, a land where the loa were closer to everything and walked among the people without disguise. The sacred places were in the north, were they not? The Bois Caïman, Vertières – the places where the land had given its wrath to the people and made us free. We were in the country of power.

Standing there, we all could believe it. They’d used black magic against our armies in ’52 and ’53, people said, and now there were stories of a prince who could command the loa even though he was just two years old. Maybe there were sorcerer-kings in the north, calling on the loa to confuse our armies. Maybe they were using it on us.

“We should camp here,” Josaphat said. “We can sleep in houses for once. In the plantation house there will even be beds, and maybe also food.”

The houses stood there, inviting. But no one save Romain would follow Josaphat toward them. Then the Lieutenant said “Advance,” and for once we were grateful: we followed him out of this phantom village, out of the reach of whatever sorcerer had made it empty.

There was a road, at least – there was always a road at a plantation. For a few miles, we walked as we might have on the fields of Artibonite. But then it ended in a tangle of growth, or maybe we simply lost it. We found a clear spot and made camp, and in the morning we advanced.

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“There are supposed to be cacos in these mountains,” Étienne said. “Where are they? Why haven’t they attacked us?”

“And where are the northern soldiers?” asked Pascal. “Where are their patrols? Surely there are men in the King’s uniform up here, to deal with lost lambs like us.”

“Maybe they’re all in Artibonite,” said Alexandre.

“All of them? Do you think they’ve emptied their whole country to fight us? Who would hold down the peasants, if all the soldiers were down south?”

“The houngans can magic them there, and bring them back.”

“Why do they march, then? Why do we trap them when we march faster?”

Alexandre shrugged. The answer to that question didn’t matter to him. He had crossed over to the realm of faith, where logic had no more sway than the law.

And then Pascal said something even worse. “I think we’ve seen these trees before.”

“How can you tell?” Josaphat fairly screamed. Others echoed him, no one whispering now. “One of these trees looks just like any other!”

“To you, maybe. To a Port-au-Prince man. I’m not from Port-au-Prince, and I’m telling you these trees look the same. We’ve been here before. We’re going south now.”

“I’m not a city boy,” said Étienne, “and I don’t recognize these trees either. You’re talking nonsense, Pascal.”

“We’re going south…”

“South?” said Alexandre. “There is no south here. No north, east or west. The houngans have hold of us, and we’ll go in circles until we die.”

“Someone climb a tree,” Romain said. His voice cut through the babble; he knew someone had to say something before the men panicked, and he knew the Lieutenant wouldn’t. “Climb a tree to where you can see the sun, and tell us if we’re going north or south.”

“Yes,” Étienne said, clinging to the words as he might a rope in a storm. He disappeared up a tree and we all stood silent, waiting.

He came down minutes later, and before he said anything, we knew his news would not be good. “The clouds are very heavy. I can’t see where the sun is. I don’t know which way we’re going.”

“There are no directions,” said Alexandre. “We’re going nowhere.”

“Because of him!” Pascal shouted, rounding on the Lieutenant. “The houngans put a spell on him when we lost the army, to make us wander through the mountains forever. ‘Advance, advance,’ he says – advance to death! We have to kill him to break the spell.”

“Yes, kill him!” others shouted.

“Kill him?” said Romain. “Do you want to make a human sacrifice of him, an offering to Maître Carrefour to show us the road onward? Is that what it will be, black magic to fight black magic, a curse taken on ourselves?”

“There is no magic,” Josaphat answered. “There are no curses.” He brandished his machete and rushed at the Lieutenant.

The Lieutenant said the first word other than “Advance” that we’d heard from him since Artibonite. No, he didn’t say it; he screamed it. “No! No!”

He tried to fight, too. Even a zombie will fight for its life if it’s cornered. But he’d grown up in a Port-au-Prince drawing room, and they hadn’t taught him how. Josaphat landed the first blow, a slash that tore open the Lieutenant’s side and set rivers of blood flowing. The others followed, slashing and chopping. The Lieutenant screamed again, without words this time, and then he screamed no more.

“Bury him,” Josaphat commanded.

“Leave him,” said Pascal. “There is evil magic on him.”

“There is evil magic in us,” Romain said, and for a moment it seemed that evil was about to work, for Josaphat and Pascal circled each other like men about to fight. But then Josaphat let his arm drop and said, “Leave him,” and we did. We went north, as best we could. Even without the Lieutenant, we were still advancing.

We camped in a valley again that night, our fire the only light, the bats above the only sound. We ate the last of our rations; from here, there would be no food. We drank deeply from the stream, filling our stomachs with water though we knew they wouldn’t stay full long.

“Krik?” said Romain – do you want to hear a story?

“Krak,” we all answered without thinking, though none of us really did. There was something about this place that wasn’t right for stories. But nobody took it back – no one was sure there was even a way to take it back.

“I’ll tell you a story of black magic,” Romain said. “The story of Ti Malice and the first war. There were two villages of people, happy and prosperous, fields full of crops and houses full of children. Ti Malice went to one of them and said, ‘The people in the other village are evil sorcerers, who have set curses on your fields and on your mothers’ wombs.’ And she went to the other and said, ‘Your neighbors to the south are arrogant, evil, have lost the way of being truly human, and they will overrun you.’ So the people of both villages went out to fight each other, and many were killed. And while they were off to battle, Ti Malice went into the houses and picked them all clean, and when they came home, she went to the battlefield and robbed the corpses.”

A silence followed. “I think I’ve heard that story before,” said Josaphat.

“I think it’s been told to us,” said Alexandre.

“Half of it,” Étienne answered.

We slept, and had troubled dreams. But the next day, we came over the crest of a mountain and saw the sea. The north was below us, its plains and hills, its plantations and cities. There was no sign of fighting; we had surely come farther than any other soldiers of the Republic.

“Are there sorcerers there?” Alexandre asked.

“There are people,” said Josaphat.

“Soldiers,” Étienne answered. “The soldiers will surely be down there. Do we fight them?”

“Look at us. Are we going to march into Okap and conquer it?”

“We surrender, then?”

“Surrender, or stay here,” said Pascal.

No one said anything about the Lieutenant, but we all advanced, down to the plains, down to where the enemy waited. He would be a welcome sight.

-- 1870​
 
Very Vietnam-esque, especially with the fragging towards the end. Almost reminiscent of Lord of the Flies as well- the slow descent into decay, the killing of authority.

Excellent, vivid work.
 
Very Vietnam-esque, especially with the fragging towards the end. Almost reminiscent of Lord of the Flies as well- the slow descent into decay, the killing of authority.

The moral decay of war, the effects of stereotyped fear of the other - but I guess those are themes of both Vietnam and Lord of the Flies. The real Beast is in ourselves, after all.

By way of planning: Before the Battle was the ninth of what I intend to be 20 stories. The tenth and eleventh - the central ones in the series - will involve the Black Prince before and after his accession. Afterward, I think I'll visit the south in the 1830s, to show some of how things got to be the way they are (and to resolve the fate of the Dominican Republic), and then the north in the 1930s or early 40s, a time of growth and revolutionary change. After that... well, I know what the last two stories will be, but I'm still fuzzy on the ones in between, so if anyone has any places, times or themes they'd like to see, I'm open to suggestion.

(Any more thoughts on Before the Battle would also be appreciated - there's no obligation, of course, but I like to talk about my stories.)
 
The Kingdom of Haiti is a monarchy under the house of Christophe. Historically autocratic - there was no elected legislature from 1807 to 1890, and it was 1911 before the popularly elected body had any real power - it remains so, with the king retaining considerable constitutional power and the 523-member Chambre des Pairs, comprised mainly of landed nobles, acting as an upper house of the legislature. The lower house, the Chambre des Députés, has 177 members and, since the 1930 constitution established responsible government, the prime minister always has to come from this house.
*******

Political parties of the Kingdom of Haiti

  • Parti du progrès et développement: This is the "palace party," which supports (and is supported by) the king, and which receives enormously preferential treatment from the state media and election officials. Its ideology is flexible, given that it is centered around a person rather than a principle, but it broadly supports the interests of the landed nobles and the urban comprador class, and supports cosmetic nationalist measures such as increased use of Creole. Its voters come mainly from the nobles' rural clientele, and its deputies are usually technocrats favored by the king (the nobles themselves are in the Chambre des Pairs). The party's strong support in the upper house makes it the default governing party even when, as now, it lacks a majority in the lower house, but minority PPD governments have to make ad hoc coalitions with the opposition in order to enact legislation.

  • Parti dessaliniste: Traditionally the strongest opposition party, the PD is highly nationalist and populist. It advocates recognizing Vodou as an official faith and Creole as the sole official language, nationalizing foreign-owned industries and commercial concerns, and a comprehensive social-welfare program for the peasants and urban working class. Although its opposition to the PPD is passionate, the PD has historically been the easiest faction for the ruling party to work with, as it advocates neither large-scale land reform nor the abolition of the monarchy, and most of its legislative platform is compatible with (or at least not adverse to) the PPD's.

  • Parti du terre et travail: The PTT is historically a small party but has recently eclipsed the PD in rural areas to become the second-largest faction in the Chambre des Députés. It is not opposed to the monarchy but is strongly anti-noble, seeking to disband the Chambre des Pairs and break up the landed estates into cooperatives of yeoman farmers. It also supports a social-welfare program similar to the PD's, and has been able to enact some aspects of that program during periods when the PDD has been in the minority.

  • Parti républicain: This faction seeks to abolish both the monarchy and the nobility, and to institute a republic along the lines of southern Haiti. Opinions within the party are divided on whether to unite with the south after establishing this republic (which would entail considerable economic costs) or remain independent. The key supporters of the PR are the urban middle class, who feel shut out of the political and social elite, and as such, it tends to support free-market reforms as well as social liberalization. The PR is currently the smallest major party in the Chambre des Députés (there are a few splinter factions and regional parties that are smaller) but as the Kingdom becomes more urbanized, it is expected to grow in significance.

I'm getting OTL Morocco-vibes. I like it, just discovered this. As always, JE, you do not disappoint.
 
This is fascinating, and very well-written.

In one of the earlier stories, the king officially abolished serfdom. How did that play out in actuality? Was there a sudden exodus of former serfs to the cities, or even to the Republic? Did we see something akin to sharecropping develop? The monarch seems to have gotten his way in the capital, but is there resistance (either passive or active) from outlying nobles?

How easy is it for an ordinary citizen of the Kingdom to join the nobility? Is there some equivalent of "life peers" or other method of granting titles to ambitious commoners, or is the number more or less fixed to the original creation (with the possibility to "marry-in" to preexisting noble families in a few select cases)? Do kings tend to elevate their cronies to titles in order to establish a base of support among the peers?
 
I want to see what happens to the Dominicans. And the Black Prince, who sounds absolutely fascinating.

Also- is the Marie-Claire mentioned as the Duchess the same as the one who is wife of Alexandre Fermin? Or just a case of the same name?

Anything about the nobility or royalty of the North, which I must admit are much more interesting to me than anything from the south.

I'd also like to see if any permanent cultural differences develop in the diaspora- there are hints to these differences, but we also have characters moving south from the north, and some generally thinking, at least in my perception, of the north as something between kin and foreign.
 
Thanks to everyone for their interest.

I'm getting OTL Morocco-vibes.

As I told you off-list, Morocco was one of my main models for the Kingdom's politics. The Kingdom of Haiti in the present day is a monarchy that has the forms of democracy but not the full substance, and which still has semi-feudal landholding and social patterns in the countryside. Its party politics are more developed than Swaziland, and it doesn't have Thailand's tradition of praetorian military rule, so the closest OTL analogue would be the Middle Eastern monarchies. The North Haitian PPD is modeled very consciously on the Moroccan Istiqlal and PAM.

In one of the earlier stories, the king officially abolished serfdom. How did that play out in actuality? Was there a sudden exodus of former serfs to the cities, or even to the Republic? Did we see something akin to sharecropping develop? The monarch seems to have gotten his way in the capital, but is there resistance (either passive or active) from outlying nobles?

There was always defection to the cities and the south, even before the abolition of fermage - the Haitian terrain makes it hard to keep people from fleeing if they really want to. There wasn't much immediate change after formal abolition - the country nobles were often uncooperative, there weren't enough jobs in the cities to draw very many peasants off the land, and most people didn't want to leave home and give up their familiar customs. But as time went on, the cities became more developed and education spread to the countryside, that began to change, which was part of the cause for the revolutions of 1911 and 1930.

Peasants who live on feudal plantations today - and there are many - work under a system similar to fermage, under which they are entitled to a share of the plantation's profits and also have their own garden plots (which can be individual or communal depending on the village). They don't have ownership of the plantation, though, so they can't sell their right to its profits if they leave - informal exchanges with newcomers do sometimes happen, but those require the landlord's approval.

How easy is it for an ordinary citizen of the Kingdom to join the nobility? Is there some equivalent of "life peers" or other method of granting titles to ambitious commoners, or is the number more or less fixed to the original creation (with the possibility to "marry-in" to preexisting noble families in a few select cases)? Do kings tend to elevate their cronies to titles in order to establish a base of support among the peers?

There's been plenty of flux in the nobility (as there was in OTL): kings might grant estates to loyal supporters, while established nobles might lose their titles through bankruptcy or disloyalty. As mentioned in the post Essam quoted, there are now 523 members of the chambre des pairs as opposed to the 84 titles that Henri-Christophe originally created.

One thing that hasn't changed is that nobility is tied to land, meaning that those who want to buy their way in have to buy an estate as well as a title. This involves paying heavy bribes to the king and court officials and finding a noble who's willing to sell some of his land, usually at a highly inflated price. Unless you're a crony of the king, buying in is hard, which is part of the reason why the upper middle class in the cities is frustrated. and why the Parti republicain has the support it does.

You'll see some of these factors at work, BTW, in the stories set in the twentieth-century north.

I want to see what happens to the Dominicans. And the Black Prince, who sounds absolutely fascinating.

Also- is the Marie-Claire mentioned as the Duchess the same as the one who is wife of Alexandre Fermin? Or just a case of the same name?

Anything about the nobility or royalty of the North, which I must admit are much more interesting to me than anything from the south.

You'll see plenty of the northern nobility, and the Dominicans will feature in more than just the 1830s story.

The two Marie-Claires are different, although they're both nobles, so it's not impossible that they're related by marriage or blood.

I'd also like to see if any permanent cultural differences develop in the diaspora- there are hints to these differences, but we also have characters moving south from the north, and some generally thinking, at least in my perception, of the north as something between kin and foreign.

"Something between kin and foreign" is a pretty good description of how citizens of the two Haitis view each other. "People who ought to be like us but aren't" also comes into play.

I suspect that the diaspora is mostly southern, given the south's greater poverty and (especially after the mid-20th century) higher population growth rates, so the Haitian communities in Miami, New York and Montreal will be disproportionately from the south. The communities in the Dominican Republic and Cuba will be even more so. Northerners who leave the island altogether rather than going south will face dual culture shock, both from moving to a new country and from having to fit in with a local Haitian community that is different from them. The story set in the north during the 1930s or 40s will feature a returning member of the diaspora, and so will some of the others - maybe one of them will take place abroad.
 
Great updates!

In the "Queen" update though you wrote:

“Will you take oath to me, and deal fairly with us as a many of your government?”

Did you mean "man" instead of "many"?
 
"Something between kin and foreign" is a pretty good description of how citizens of the two Haitis view each other. "People who ought to be like us but aren't" also comes into play.

I suspect that the diaspora is mostly southern, given the south's greater poverty and (especially after the mid-20th century) higher population growth rates, so the Haitian communities in Miami, New York and Montreal will be disproportionately from the south. The communities in the Dominican Republic and Cuba will be even more so. Northerners who leave the island altogether rather than going south will face dual culture shock, both from moving to a new country and from having to fit in with a local Haitian community that is different from them. The story set in the north during the 1930s or 40s will feature a returning member of the diaspora, and so will some of the others - maybe one of them will take place abroad.

Hmmm....I dunno. I don't see why North Haitians would face dual culture shock. After all the situation would tend to be analogous to Pakistani and Bangladeshi diaspora communities in the United Kingdom (in that they are people from what was once a unified country and who are "something between kin and foreign" and "people who ought to be like us but aren't"). So I would imagine that North Haitians would form their own smaller diaspora communities separate to some extent from the South Haitian diaspora but that like many immigrant communities from the Caribbean and other parts of the developing world, these two communities will generally be more integrated with each other than their home nations are (we see this as immigrants tend to come to the unexpected and harsh realization that to many Americans, Canadians and Brits you aren't "St. Lucian", "Barbadian", "Salvadorean", "Costa Rican", "Kenyan", "Ugandan", "Bangladeshi" or "Nepali" but instead "West Indian", "Latino", "East African" and "(South) Asian"). This combined with the generalized racist attitudes in the United States, Canada and United Kingdom that was far more acceptable in the past and more widespread/prevalent before OTL 1950s means the immigrant communities will find they have more similarities than differences in the new metropolises they call "home".

In OTL, they faded away during the American occupation after new administrative and farming techniques came in. In TTL, there was no occupation, so the agricultural reforms were adopted more organically and enforced by the societies. Also, under the pressure of a predatory government, the societies evolved into something like the early Mafia; they charge for protection, establish monopolies, are involved in minor rackets and act as a court of first resort in the absence of any real government presence. They aren't good guys, but they're less bad than most of the readily-available alternatives.

BTW, I'm planning for this timeline to include 16 to 20 stories, with the last one set in the present day. The next one, as currently planned, will be in the 1860s-70s, and then back to the 1890s and the Black Prince.

Why is there no American occupation in TTL? Because American involvement in the non-British, non-Dutch and non-French (Martinique, Guadeloupe, French Guiana) West Indian holdings became very prominent as time went by, starting with American interest in Cuba from the early 1800s. With the expansion of America to the Pacific and the need to secure trade routes between the East and West Coasts, American interest in Central America and the Caribbean was only ever going to grow. The Panama Canal just ramped it up to a whole new level, with the Americans now becoming very interested in ensuring the approaches to the Panama Canal were being guarded by American bases or at least not in the hands of powers that would likely be a threat to the Canal. Hence the American interest in the acquiring the Danish West Indies (now the US Virgin Islands) and the interest in establishing a base in the Fajardo-Culebra-Vieques region and maintaining bases in Cuba and establishing bases in the Dominican Republic (especially around the Samaná Peninsula).


I think it would be very difficult not end up with some kind of American involvement in Haiti over time.

And will there be any hints as to what is happening elsewhere that might lead up to there being no American occupation? Is it that the South was allowed to secede or won the civil war? Is there no World War I? No Spanish-American War?
 
Did you mean "man" instead of "many"?

I did, yes. It's too late to edit the story now, so consider it amended.

Hmmm....I dunno. I don't see why North Haitians would face dual culture shock. After all the situation would tend to be analogous to Pakistani and Bangladeshi diaspora communities in the United Kingdom (in that they are people from what was once a unified country and who are "something between kin and foreign" and "people who ought to be like us but aren't"). So I would imagine that North Haitians would form their own smaller diaspora communities separate to some extent from the South Haitian diaspora but that like many immigrant communities from the Caribbean and other parts of the developing world, these two communities will generally be more integrated with each other than their home nations are

This makes a lot of sense. I wonder if, to some extent, emigrants from the two Haitis might go to different places - for instance, the Kingdom's ties to Germany might result in North Haitians living in the German ports, while southerners would be more likely to seek agricultural work in Cuba or the DR. On the other hand, the United States, Canada and to some extent France are obvious destinations for citizens of both countries, so there would probably be dual communities in at least Miami, New York and Montreal, and they might develop much as you say. Which in turn could lead to members of the diaspora (especially those born abroad) wondering what all the fuss is about when they return.

Why is there no American occupation in TTL? Because American involvement in the non-British, non-Dutch and non-French (Martinique, Guadeloupe, French Guiana) West Indian holdings became very prominent as time went by, starting with American interest in Cuba from the early 1800s. With the expansion of America to the Pacific and the need to secure trade routes between the East and West Coasts, American interest in Central America and the Caribbean was only ever going to grow.

Oh, there will be American influence in both Haitis, as there will be in the rest of the Caribbean and Latin America. It's just the twenty-year occupation and administration that isn't on the cards.

In OTL, the occupation happened for two reasons: the complete collapse of the Haitian government (beyond even the usual levels of chaos) and the fear that German ownership of much of the Haitian economy would cause Haiti to fall under German influence during WW1. Neither of these factors obtain here - neither of the Haitis will approach OTL levels of collapse during the early 20th century, and while Germans are still prominent, Germany and the United States are not enemies. So while the United States will practice economic colonialism toward the Haitis, there will not be a period of direct American administration even in the south.
 
Oh, there will be American influence in both Haitis, as there will be in the rest of the Caribbean and Latin America. It's just the twenty-year occupation and administration that isn't on the cards.

In OTL, the occupation happened for two reasons: the complete collapse of the Haitian government (beyond even the usual levels of chaos) and the fear that German ownership of much of the Haitian economy would cause Haiti to fall under German influence during WW1. Neither of these factors obtain here - neither of the Haitis will approach OTL levels of collapse during the early 20th century, and while Germans are still prominent, Germany and the United States are not enemies. So while the United States will practice economic colonialism toward the Haitis, there will not be a period of direct American administration even in the south.

Fair enough. The circumstances that lead to that particular twenty year occupation would not necessarily occur in this TL. However some kind of American military intervention/occupation would seem likely at some point even if it only lasted a year or two or if it did not encompass the country (as happened once when the Americans occupied eastern Cuba to help put down a revolt there).
 
John sorry it took me a month to respond but great update. :eek: Anyway the divide between north and south is very wide. My parents both come from the south. And they consider the north as ignorant and too black. Most of my family on both sides are light skin. My mother is lightskin. The south was the bastion of the mulatto regime. Since they had european blood they felt a sense of superiority. Kind of stupid since they have more african blood that european. The north sees the south as lazy field peasants who work the land for no betterment for the island. Toussaint,Dessalines and Christophe truly belived in the fermage system and implented it harshly. If there is immigrant groups of both side sthey will be close. The reason is because if they are in a foreigh land they need support. When my father came to NYC in the 80s he didnt care if you were from Cap Haitian or Hinche. He was from Aux Cayes. He was freinds with you. Same applied to my mom. Even though there differences from north and south. But in Miami,Montreal,Boston,New York City if a northener hears a southener speak creole they both will be excited to talk to each other.

On the Germany front. I read a story where in a German ship of the cost of Port Au Prince there was a crisis where the Haitian flag was covered in defecation. I forgot how it went but there was German intrigue in Haiti in the early 1900s. Anyway good update I am glad this thread is not dead.
 
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John sorry it took me a month to respond but great update. :eek: Anyway the divide between north and south is very wide. My parents both come from the south. And they consider the north as ignorant and too black. [...] The north sees the south as lazy field peasants who work the land for no betterment for the island.

No apologies necessary - I'm always happy to see you here.

Anyway, the attitudes you describe are much like the way I've assumed the Kingdom and the Republic would stereotype each other, so I guess I got that detail right. I've also envisioned that the south would see the north as uncultured, and that the north would consider southerners to have sacrificed their Haitian identity and become too French.

If there is immigrant groups of both side sthey will be close. The reason is because if they are in a foreigh land they need support. When my father came to NYC in the 80s he didnt care if you were from Cap Haitian or Hinche. He was from Aux Cayes. He was freinds with you. Same applied to my mom. Even though there differences from north and south. But in Miami,Montreal,Boston,New York City if a northener hears a southener speak creole they both will be excited to talk to each other.

That makes sense, especially since non-Haitians will probably treat northerners and southerners the same.

Do you think Creole will develop differently in the north and south if they are separate countries for a long time, or would trade and migration between them keep the language the same?

On the Germany front. I read a story where in a German ship of the cost of Port Au Prince there was a crisis where the Haitian flag was covered in defecation. I forgot how it went but there was German intrigue in Haiti in the early 1900s. Anyway good update I am glad this thread is not dead.

I wonder if it was the Emile Lüders affair, which happened in 1897. In any event, the Germans are involved in both Haitis in TTL, especially the north.

And don't worry, there are more stories to come.
 
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