Stop The Wankel Engine

kernals12

Banned
Because (in the case of the Mazda 13B) they had the same HP as a Malaise era small block V8, while half the weight and more compact
And much worse gas mileage and pathetic levels of torque. Also, the poor power figures of the late 70s were not unique to the Malaise era. It's just a fact that the crude technology of the time meant engines didn't produce much power. Variable valve timing, 4 valves per cylinder, and direct fuel injection mean we are spoiled for power these days. The extremely inaccurate SAE Gross figures used before 1972 just made those engines look a lot more powerful than they were.
 

kernals12

Banned
Misadventures with Wankel also led Norton motorcycles to an early demise.

Instead of this dead end....

MyPicClassic.jpg
Everything the rotary engine touches turns to sh*t.
 
Here's my POD:

Felix Wankel was a true Nazi ideologue. In 1922, he joined the Nazi party. He decides to help Hitler with the Putsch and takes a beating trying save Hitler from arrest. They are imprisoned together. While doing time, Hitler writes Mein Kampf and Wankel has time to conceive of his rotary engine.

Hitler is firmly entrenched in power in 1934. He knows Germany has a limited budget and they must win quick wars. He needs a game-changer. Convinced by the likes of Guderian, he decides to invest in armor and motorized troop transports. He knows to get the edge over the world's militaries, who have been building tanks unencumbered for 15 years, Germany needs to invest boldly in a new technology.

The Wankel. Wankel was his dependable ally from years back and he remembered fondly their speculations in prison that German resourcefulness and resolve would put an end to Versailles and the Communists.

All Wunderwaffe funding would not be diverted to rockets or jets. Rather, the Wankel would get top priority and Felix would head the project personally. The Panzer type III and IV was designed to carrier the new powerplant, promised to require less maintenance, fuel, manufacturing, and generate more power. The Ju88, Fw190, and ME110 projects were designed to have a Wankel motor designed for use in the air. There was even talk of using the new technology in the Kriegsmarine, though the investment to create new powerplants for naval purposes would have to wait for the next war.

By 1939 these different Wankels were mass produced in the Rhur. German leadership were amazed at their power. There were mutterings among the mechanikers that the new machines would burn a lot of oil, carbon-up, and radically lose compression under prolonged use.

"Stupid grease monkeys," they thought. "They need to update with the times."

Any whispered dissent against the Wankel was silenced after the invasion of Poland. German armor smashed through Polish lines and German aircraft ruled the skies unencumbered. Crews loved that they could beat the crap out of their equipment, put the pedal to the metal, and push their machines to the limit for Vernichtungsschlacht.

Hitler praised Wankel publicly for his contributions to the war effort and the German people viewed him as a hero. The world's militaries took notice. Great Britain and France rushed to take pre-war Wankels and reverse engineer them. Detroit was slow to adopt the technology, but began serious research. The Russians, who were able to actually get their hands on a downed German aircraft with the motor, also started work on reverse-engineering.

The time was ripe in November 1939 to strike in France, but the mechanikers begged for time to service the equipment, especially the motors of the vehicle pool. Hitler had to oblige, and not understanding how the Wankel worked, suggested that the military introduce discipline to not push the equipment too hard.

May 10th 1940 would prove to be a fateful day in the history of the Wankel. Germany struck in the Ardennes forest, smashing through French lines. The leadership of France and Great Britain turned white with fear. Nothing could stop Germany, they were just too many years ahead due to their paradigm shifting technology. The German military smashed through Sedan and they ruled the skies. The English Channel awaited them and nothing stood in their way.

They dashed to the channel. Just as it transpired in Poland behind the scenes, the loss of equipment to breakdowns was shockingly high. The motors would suddenly lose compression. While the crews had grown adept at removing spark plugs and squirting motor oil, lubricant--anything petroleum based to help the motors seal better, there was only so far they could push their equipment. The mechanikers were often left behind with supplies, and replacing motors was not something that could be done in the field when warfare was mobile.

Nevertheless, Herman Goering promised the the Luftwaffe can both bring mechanics and supplies quicker to the field, while simultaneously destroying the Allied pocket at Dunkirk. Hitler, knowing that the infantry needed time to catch up with the motorized elements of the Heer, obliged. Heroic British efforts paid off at Dunkirk and the sortie rate from the Luftwaffe put an exceptional amount of JU88s and ME110s out of commission. After several weeks of ruling the skies, suddenly the Luftwaffe had lost considerably more than half of their aircraft to enemy losses or repairs.

This did not matter, Hitler and his generals thought. The French were defeated, having lost the flower of their military. The plan was to sprint to Cherbourg and Paris simultaneously, knocking France out of the war when the opportunity was rife. Surely, enough German equipment and sheer Aryan will could end the war quickly.

Fall Rot was initiated. After initial successes, events started deteriorating for the Germans. Operation Paula had become a decisive defeat, as German sorties had collapsed while the French and RAF have begun their highest sortie rate of the campaign. The Allies now ruled the skies. During the battle of Aisne, the Panzerwaffe were dealt their first significant defeat, as their numbers were culled by breakdowns and French forces were able to reconstitute their armor after the debacle in Belgium. By June 20th, the German military was in retreat and most of their armor and personnel carriers (with the exceptions of Panzer Is and IIs and Opel Blitzs), were left behind in the battlefield and captured by the enemy. A second British Expeditionary Force had now entered into the fray, and Rommel was decisively defeated and his forces captured, pinned down on the beaches of Normandy. By mid July, Italy had entered the war against Germany, invading from the south into Austria (though they made almost no headway and were held off by Landwehr and old men.) By the end of July, Germany was fought back to its own borders and Belgium was liberated almost entirely.

Before himself being killed in a coup, Hitler had Felix Wankel executed. Germany surrendered on September 1, 1940. Czechoslovakia was reconstituted, Austria was liberated (though Italy was given small territorial gains in said nation), West Poland's gained its independence, Norway was partitioned between France and Great Britain (as she remains to this day), and Germany was forced to de-militarize.

Ironically, in 2018, Germany is the wealthiest per capita country in the world with a population more than 10 million. They have benefited from decades of no military expenditures and have a classicly liberal economy, high birth rates (for a European country), and a reactionary shift to social conservatism. The West's soft socialism and military assertiveness is viewed as Hitlerian and the social liberalism of the West is conflated with these things. Neighboring countries, such as Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and West Poland have developed very close ties with the Democratic German Republic. The last three Popes have been German, for what it is worth.

As for the Wankel, it was universally disavowed. It has mostly been forgotten other than the term being used as a euphemism for masturbation and online fanboys who speculate that only if it was built a little bit differently, "Germany could have won the war." Most alternate history fans believe the opposite, however. Some speculate Germany could have successfully completed Fall Rot, forced Britain to terms, and invade the Soviet Union unencumbered with Romanian, Italian, Bulgarian, Greek, Yugoslavian, Hungarian, Slovakian, and Finnish allies. European Jewry would have been in Madagascar instead of largely in West Poland, East Poland, and Belarus, as they are today. The 1,000 year Reich could have become a reality--thankfully it wasn't, due to the Wankel.
 

kernals12

Banned
Here's my POD:

Felix Wankel was a true Nazi ideologue. In 1922, he joined the Nazi party. He decides to help Hitler with the Putsch and takes a beating trying save Hitler from arrest. They are imprisoned together. While doing time, Hitler writes Mein Kampf and Wankel has time to conceive of his rotary engine.

Hitler is firmly entrenched in power in 1934. He knows Germany has a limited budget and they must win quick wars. He needs a game-changer. Convinced by the likes of Guderian, he decides to invest in armor and motorized troop transports. He knows to get the edge over the world's militaries, who have been building tanks unencumbered for 15 years, Germany needs to invest boldly in a new technology.

The Wankel. Wankel was his dependable ally from years back and he remembered fondly their speculations in prison that German resourcefulness and resolve would put an end to Versailles and the Communists.

All Wunderwaffe funding would not be diverted to rockets or jets. Rather, the Wankel would get top priority and Felix would head the project personally. The Panzer type III and IV was designed to carrier the new powerplant, promised to require less maintenance, fuel, manufacturing, and generate more power. The Ju88, Fw190, and ME110 projects were designed to have a Wankel motor designed for use in the air. There was even talk of using the new technology in the Kriegsmarine, though the investment to create new powerplants for naval purposes would have to wait for the next war.

By 1939 these different Wankels were mass produced in the Rhur. German leadership were amazed at their power. There were mutterings among the mechanikers that the new machines would burn a lot of oil, carbon-up, and radically lose compression under prolonged use.

"Stupid grease monkeys," they thought. "They need to update with the times."

Any whispered dissent against the Wankel was silenced after the invasion of Poland. German armor smashed through Polish lines and German aircraft ruled the skies unencumbered. Crews loved that they could beat the crap out of their equipment, put the pedal to the metal, and push their machines to the limit for Vernichtungsschlacht.

Hitler praised Wankel publicly for his contributions to the war effort and the German people viewed him as a hero. The world's militaries took notice. Great Britain and France rushed to take pre-war Wankels and reverse engineer them. Detroit was slow to adopt the technology, but began serious research. The Russians, who were able to actually get their hands on a downed German aircraft with the motor, also started work on reverse-engineering.

The time was ripe in November 1939 to strike in France, but the mechanikers begged for time to service the equipment, especially the motors of the vehicle pool. Hitler had to oblige, and not understanding how the Wankel worked, suggested that the military introduce discipline to not push the equipment too hard.

May 10th 1940 would prove to be a fateful day in the history of the Wankel. Germany struck in the Ardennes forest, smashing through French lines. The leadership of France and Great Britain turned white with fear. Nothing could stop Germany, they were just too many years ahead due to their paradigm shifting technology. The German military smashed through Sedan and they ruled the skies. The English Channel awaited them and nothing stood in their way.

They dashed to the channel. Just as it transpired in Poland behind the scenes, the loss of equipment to breakdowns was shockingly high. The motors would suddenly lose compression. While the crews had grown adept at removing spark plugs and squirting motor oil, lubricant--anything petroleum based to help the motors seal better, there was only so far they could push their equipment. The mechanikers were often left behind with supplies, and replacing motors was not something that could be done in the field when warfare was mobile.

Nevertheless, Herman Goering promised the the Luftwaffe can both bring mechanics and supplies quicker to the field, while simultaneously destroying the Allied pocket at Dunkirk. Hitler, knowing that the infantry needed time to catch up with the motorized elements of the Heer, obliged. Heroic British efforts paid off at Dunkirk and the sortie rate from the Luftwaffe put an exceptional amount of JU88s and ME110s out of commission. After several weeks of ruling the skies, suddenly the Luftwaffe had lost considerably more than half of their aircraft to enemy losses or repairs.

This did not matter, Hitler and his generals thought. The French were defeated, having lost the flower of their military. The plan was to sprint to Cherbourg and Paris simultaneously, knocking France out of the war when the opportunity was rife. Surely, enough German equipment and sheer Aryan will could end the war quickly.

Fall Rot was initiated. After initial successes, events started deteriorating for the Germans. Operation Paula had become a decisive defeat, as German sorties had collapsed while the French and RAF have begun their highest sortie rate of the campaign. The Allies now ruled the skies. During the battle of Aisne, the Panzerwaffe were dealt their first significant defeat, as their numbers were culled by breakdowns and French forces were able to reconstitute their armor after the debacle in Belgium. By June 20th, the German military was in retreat and most of their armor and personnel carriers (with the exceptions of Panzer Is and IIs and Opel Blitzs), were left behind in the battlefield and captured by the enemy. A second British Expeditionary Force had now entered into the fray, and Rommel was decisively defeated and his forces captured, pinned down on the beaches of Normandy. By mid July, Italy had entered the war against Germany, invading from the south into Austria (though they made almost no headway and were held off by Landwehr and old men.) By the end of July, Germany was fought back to its own borders and Belgium was liberated almost entirely.

Before himself being killed in a coup, Hitler had Felix Wankel executed. Germany surrendered on September 1, 1940. Czechoslovakia was reconstituted, Austria was liberated (though Italy was given small territorial gains in said nation), West Poland's gained its independence, Norway was partitioned between France and Great Britain (as she remains to this day), and Germany was forced to de-militarize.

Ironically, in 2018, Germany is the wealthiest per capita country in the world with a population more than 10 million. They have benefited from decades of no military expenditures and have a classicly liberal economy, high birth rates (for a European country), and a reactionary shift to social conservatism. The West's soft socialism and military assertiveness is viewed as Hitlerian and the social liberalism of the West is conflated with these things. Neighboring countries, such as Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and West Poland have developed very close ties with the Democratic German Republic. The last three Popes have been German, for what it is worth.

As for the Wankel, it was universally disavowed. It has mostly been forgotten other than the term being used as a euphemism for masturbation and online fanboys who speculate that only if it was built a little bit differently, "Germany could have won the war." Most alternate history fans believe the opposite, however. Some speculate Germany could have successfully completed Fall Rot, forced Britain to terms, and invade the Soviet Union unencumbered with Romanian, Italian, Bulgarian, Greek, Yugoslavian, Hungarian, Slovakian, and Finnish allies. European Jewry would have been in Madagascar instead of largely in West Poland, East Poland, and Belarus, as they are today. The 1,000 year Reich could have become a reality--thankfully it wasn't, due to the Wankel.
Works for me! Although how does Germany wind up with 70 million fewer people? Also, unless there's lots of oil under Germany that wasn't known about IOTL, there's no way they'd have the highest per capita income.
 
Works for me! Although how does Germany wind up with 70 million fewer people? Also, unless there's lots of oil under Germany that wasn't known about IOTL, there's no way they'd have the highest per capita income.
They don;t have 70 million fewer people, rather they have a very high GDP per capita but not higher than Luxembourg or Switzerland. I imagine their population might be about 100 million, with East Prussia, no war losses, and apparently a positive birth rate (and a decent flow of immigration, due to the need for labor presumably.) Its kind of a joke that Germany would be well off today if they lost the war really quickly. Look at Japan, who's defense is mostly guarenteed by a muscular US presence in the Pacific. A Germany that loses WW2 will almsot certainly not be allowed a miliatry, and without Russian occupation of eastern Europe, you have a Germany that is defended at the expense of the America, French, and British empires against the sorta cold war against Russia.

Look at West Germany in 1988. Third highest per capita in the world among major countries other than the USA and Denmark: http://www.publicpurpose.com/lm-ppp60+.htm

ITTL, Germany that avoids being bombed into the ground and remains unified, with a USA that must invest more heavily in a cold war against a USSR that was never destroyed, has apparently fallen behind Germany per capita GDP wise. Not impossible.
 

kernals12

Banned
They don;t have 70 million fewer people, rather they have a very high GDP per capita but not higher than Luxembourg or Switzerland. I imagine their population might be about 100 million, with East Prussia, no war losses, and apparently a positive birth rate (and a decent flow of immigration, due to the need for labor presumably.) Its kind of a joke that Germany would be well off today if they lost the war really quickly. Look at Japan, who's defense is mostly guarenteed by a muscular US presence in the Pacific. A Germany that loses WW2 will almsot certainly not be allowed a miliatry, and without Russian occupation of eastern Europe, you have a Germany that is defended at the expense of the America, French, and British empires against the sorta cold war against Russia.

Look at West Germany in 1988. Third highest per capita in the world among major countries other than the USA and Denmark: http://www.publicpurpose.com/lm-ppp60+.htm

ITTL, Germany that avoids being bombed into the ground and remains unified, with a USA that must invest more heavily in a cold war against a USSR that was never destroyed, has apparently fallen behind Germany per capita GDP wise. Not impossible.
You said 10 million, not 100 million. And that list of countries doesn't include tax havens and petrostates that have higher per capita incomes. And the reason why Germany is poorer than the US is because they work fewer hours.
 
You said 10 million, not 100 million. And that list of countries doesn't include tax havens and petrostates that have higher per capita incomes. And the reason why Germany is poorer than the US is because they work fewer hours.
maybe there is a linguisitic thing here. Germany is a rich country per capita above all others if you begin counting countries with populations only above 10 million. Germany is far above 10 million.
 

kernals12

Banned
maybe there is a linguisitic thing here. Germany is a rich country per capita above all others if you begin counting countries with populations only above 10 million. Germany is far above 10 million.
Sorry, I read that sentence with a comma, as in "Germany is wealthiest per capita country in the world, with a population of more than 10 million"
 
Agree that other car and motorcycle makers would have greatly benefited not wasting money on the Wankel engine in ATL, though would still have Mazda adopt the Wankel and for a time make it a USP for the marque in trying to establish a unique identity for itself both domestically and abroad from other Japanese carmakers. Not sure what other options OTL Mazda had looked at, which could have been chosen in place of the Wankel.

Citroen could have adopted Flat-4s in place of the Wankel, possibly co-developed with Lancia.

NSU investigated a Flat-6 for what became the Ro80 that would be instead used in ATL, with the Ro80 itself possibly forming the basis for a 1.7-2-litre Flat-4 engined Panhard 24 replacement as a result of closer co-operation with Citroen (should Citroen decide to keep the latter around a bit longer).
 
And much worse gas mileage and pathetic levels of torque. Also, the poor power figures of the late 70s were not unique to the Malaise era. It's just a fact that the crude technology of the time meant engines didn't produce much power. Variable valve timing, 4 valves per cylinder, and direct fuel injection mean we are spoiled for power these days. The extremely inaccurate SAE Gross figures used before 1972 just made those engines look a lot more powerful than they were.

Had both a '69 and '72 429. Going from 11:1 compression to 8:1, and smaller Carb,the retarded cam timing made the '72 a slug, and got worse MPG on the Highway.

But lets look at 1980
Ford Mustang, with the mighty 255 V8, a debored 302 with 118 hp and 193 lb-ft of torque, with most sporting 2:73 rear ends, and only C4 Automatic, no manual in the V8 cars 2811 lbs

1980 RX-7 GS 1.1L 12A 100 hp and 105 lb-ft of torque. 7000rpm redline, 5 speed manual 2350 pounds
 

kernals12

Banned
Had both a '69 and '72 429. Going from 11:1 compression to 8:1, and smaller Carb,the retarded cam timing made the '72 a slug, and got worse MPG on the Highway.

But lets look at 1980
Ford Mustang, with the mighty 255 V8, a debored 302 with 118 hp and 193 lb-ft of torque, with most sporting 2:73 rear ends, and only C4 Automatic, no manual in the V8 cars 2811 lbs

1980 RX-7 GS 1.1L 12A 100 hp and 105 lb-ft of torque. 7000rpm redline, 5 speed manual 2350 pounds
And the RX-7 was much less fuel efficient.
 
And the RX-7 was much less fuel efficient.
1981 with 1.1L
City MPG: 21 MPG (U.S.)
Highway MPG: 30 MPG (U.S.)

1980 with 4.2L
City MPG: 18 MPG (U.S.)
Highway MPG: 26 MPG (U.S.)

There was only a short window when Mazda Rotary power made sense, and that was 1975-1985
 

kernals12

Banned
1981 with 1.1L
City MPG: 21 MPG (U.S.)
Highway MPG: 30 MPG (U.S.)

1980 with 4.2L
City MPG: 18 MPG (U.S.)
Highway MPG: 26 MPG (U.S.)

There was only a short window when Mazda Rotary power made sense, and that was 1975-1985
Can we also note how the Ford has 84% more torque?
 
AFAIK one reason the Wankel Rotary Engine produces so much power for its size is down to its design, allowing it to produce power almost all the time versus a conventional 4-stoke piston engine that only produces power for one portion of one stroke, necessitating multiple cylinders to smooth out the power cycles as a consequence - 5 at minimum needed for power 100% of the time IIRC.

By having an intake, compression/ignition, and expulsion stage all occurring at once in the same chamber, the Wankel engine effectively operates like a piston engine 3 times its size in terms of capacity - albeit with an MPG figure not much different to one of that size as well.


Can we also note how the Ford has 84% more torque?

The low torque being a consequence of that very same design, with the effective travel distance of the rotating chamber being so much less, the torque suffers as a result. Whereas a piston shafts travel distance permits a higher torque, proportional to the length of the shaft - incidentally why long-bore designs (particularly diesel-oil engines) are favoured on large, heavy vehicles.

In addition, to the best of my knowledge, the Wankel Rotary has one other downside, in that while they do produce a lot of power for their size, they can only really produce that power at one point. Near the top of their Rev Range. Further down, it can drop off a cliff.
 

kernals12

Banned
AFAIK one reason the Wankel Rotary Engine produces so much power for its size is down to its design, allowing it to produce power almost all the time versus a conventional 4-stoke piston engine that only produces power for one portion of one stroke, necessitating multiple cylinders to smooth out the power cycles as a consequence - 5 at minimum needed for power 100% of the time IIRC.

By having an intake, compression/ignition, and expulsion stage all occurring at once in the same chamber, the Wankel engine effectively operates like a piston engine 3 times its size in terms of capacity - albeit with an MPG figure not much different to one of that size as well.




The low torque being a consequence of that very same design, with the effective travel distance of the rotating chamber being so much less, the torque suffers as a result. Whereas a piston shafts travel distance permits a higher torque, proportional to the length of the shaft - incidentally why long-bore designs (particularly diesel-oil engines) are favoured on large, heavy vehicles.

In addition, to the best of my knowledge, the Wankel Rotary has one other downside, in that while they do produce a lot of power for their size, they can only really produce that power at one point. Near the top of their Rev Range. Further down, it can drop off a cliff.
That low compression ratio also hurts fuel economy. Consumer Reports got 18 MPG out of an RX-8 with 232 horsepower while getting 20 MPG out of a Mustang GT with 315 horsepower. Also, there's the problem of apex seal wear.
 
Can we also note how the Ford has 84% more torque?

Sure, but having driven both in the past, only one was fun to drive and felt 'peppy'. The 255 couldn't even chirp the tires on dry pavement, despite the extra torque, it was lost in the C4 slushbox and tall rear end gears

Now in a few years, the 5.0L with fuel injection was in, and the AOD let even the Automatic have a decent rear end ratio gear in the pumpkin, so the Mustang LX 5.0 did feel Strong, and past 'peppy'
 
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What’s a V8 rotary engine? Perhaps you’re referring to a rotary valve V8?
I got interrupted doing this post and had a brain fart. What I meant to say was unlike the Monza V8 with the rotary engine you didn't have to take out engine mounts or lose them to change the spark plugs. And I believe those were 12000 miles spark plugs. Again sorry
 
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