"Stonewall" Jackson killed at 2nd Bull Run

67th Tigers

Banned
How would this have changed things for the ANV?

Depends. If Ewell isn't wounded a couple of days later then Jackson's Wing simply becomes Ewell's Wing. This is a very good thing for the ANV, Ewell was a much better general officer.

If Ewell gets it on schedule then as well then AP Hill steps up to AP Hill's Wing. Again, probably a good thing.

When the force under DH Hill arrives (DH Hill's Wing with DH Hill's and Walker's Divisions, and the rest of McLaws' Wing with McLaws' and RH Anderson's Divisions), DH Hill becomes 2nd Maj Gen.

The butterflies at this point aren't too bad, but the November 1862 reorg is unlikely. The reason for collapsing to 2 Corps (each of which consisted of 2 Wings, and was still treated as 4 Corps organised as 2 Grand Divisions) was to remove DH Hill and McLaws from higher command and make then division commanders (although, of course, both remained the 2nd officer in their respective Corps and still took command of their wings until DH Hill left the ANV and Early took command of his wing).

Lee's request for three Corps under Longstreet, Jackson and AP Hill is now impossible. If Lee wishes to minimise DH Hill's power, he can keep 4 Corps (under Longstreet, DH Hill, AP Hill and McLaws).

I can see very little different until maybe Chancellorsville. AP Hill is a lot more effective than Jackson, and Hill's turning movement is likely to do a lot more than temporarily disrupt 11th Corps. Losing Jackson for someone that can read a map and move troops quickly over ground could result in a far more stunning ANV victory there. Maybe Lee gets his decisive victory ITTL, and it's Chancellorsville.
 
The Confederacy gets pasted even faster and the Civil War ends in 1863/64.

I know the Cult of Stonewall is almost as big as the Cult of Lee but be reasonable. The first guy who gets command of the Union Eastern forces who comes close to beating the ANV is Meade at Gettysburg. Hooker blows it, as does McClellan (que 67thTigers), and Burnside and Pope.

Lee still has many able subordinates to call upon that can do the job in Jacksons stead, maybe not as well as he could but well enough. D.H. Hill would certainly do the job very well and he has yet to allieniate everyone in high office, he has a very good record up to that point and was present with the Army before the Maryland campaign. He would only fall out of favor in the ANV following the famous lost orders incident when he got most of the blame for it.

The only problem really with D.H. Hill is that he is tactless and doesn't hesitate to say what he's thinking. Lee actually opposed his promotion for that exact reason but, regardless of the impossibility of D.H. Hill getting command of Jackson's Corps at that point or any other, he had more than enough ability to take Jackson's place and do the job well.

Regardless the loss of Jackson at 2nd Manassas in stead of Chancellorsville is not likely to change the length of the war, just more likely to change the strategies of Lee. The Eastern Theatre will still likely be as much of a dissapointment for the Union as it was in OTL, with the possibility of there being less invasions of the North by the ANV, and the War will still be won and lost in the West.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
I know the Cult of Stonewall is almost as big as the Cult of Lee but be reasonable. The first guy who gets command of the Union Eastern forces who comes close to beating the ANV is Meade at Gettysburg. Hooker blows it, as does McClellan (que 67thTigers), and Burnside and Pope.

Yet Meade is a General very similar in ideas and ability to McClellan. Meade tries to revive McClellans old plans and, after some wraggling in Washington, such as the Lincoln mandated Mine Run campaign, gets his way and places the AoP on the James and renews the siege of Richmond broken off two years earlier.

Lee still has many able subordinates to call upon that can do the job in Jacksons stead, maybe not as well as he could but well enough. D.H. Hill would certainly do the job very well and he has yet to allieniate everyone in high office, he has a very good record up to that point and was present with the Army before the Maryland campaign. He would only fall out of favor in the ANV following the famous lost orders incident when he got most of the blame for it.

An obvious butterfly here. Without Jackson there is no "lost order". McClellan will continue his more deliberate advance rather than trying to throw his army pell mell at Lee in an effort to take Lee in detail. Lee will consolidate his army again and move north into Pennsylvannia as planned, in prettymuch the same manner he did ending at Gettysburg.

There is both danger and opportunity here...
 
Yet Meade is a General very similar in ideas and ability to McClellan. Meade tries to revive McClellans old plans and, after some wraggling in Washington, such as the Lincoln mandated Mine Run campaign, gets his way and places the AoP on the James and renews the siege of Richmond broken off two years earlier.

Meade was also more amenable to dealing with Washington than McClellan was. Little Mac was constantly making a liability out of himself for Lincoln. Later on, he had Grant above him, and it was Grant who hammered his way to the James, and conceived the maneuver that got them across it, and it was Grant who dealt with Washington, which was something Grant was good at it. This meant Congress wasn't on Lincoln's back, so Lincoln wasn't on the AoP's back.



An obvious butterfly here. Without Jackson there is no "lost order". McClellan will continue his more deliberate advance rather than trying to throw his army pell mell at Lee in an effort to take Lee in detail. Lee will consolidate his army again and move north into Pennsylvannia as planned, in prettymuch the same manner he did ending at Gettysburg.

There is both danger and opportunity here...

Wasn't it DH Hill who lost the order? It still could happen, especially if the butterfly nets are of the size we are working with here.

Anyway, isn't there a bigger butterfly in the air? If Hill is commanding Jackson's wing, whose commanding the troops left behind at Harper's Ferry, and will that commander be effective enough to get his men to the battlefield on time, wherever it is?
 
Wasn't it DH Hill who lost the order? It still could happen, especially if the butterfly nets are of the size we are working with here.

Anyway, isn't there a bigger butterfly in the air? If Hill is commanding Jackson's wing, whose commanding the troops left behind at Harper's Ferry, and will that commander be effective enough to get his men to the battlefield on time, wherever it is?

What had happened was this:

Longstreet and Jackson recieved their written orders from Lee. Longstreet read it, memorized it, then ate it. Jackson wrote out duplicate orders personally for D.H. Hill who read it and put it away for safe keeping. An official copy had been made for D.H. Hill from Lee's HQ that Jackson was unaware of but those orders never reached Hill.

D.H. Hill was the scapegoat. In typical fashion he vigerously defended himself to his dying day and pulled no punches but he was made the scapegoat of the whole thing.

D.H. Hill only ever recieved Jackson's personally written orders, copied from Jackson's own orders from Lee. If he had recieved Lee's orders as well he would never have allowed such important documents to be misplaced. He was far to thorough a general to do that.

As for your other point, I think you've got your Hill's mixed up. A.P. Hill was in charge at Harper Ferry and famously had his part in the climax of Antietam when he arrived from there to prevent Burnside encircling the ANV. D.H. Hill was involved in the fighting in the Sunken Road at Antietam.
 
What had happened was this:

Longstreet and Jackson recieved their written orders from Lee. Longstreet read it, memorized it, then ate it. Jackson wrote out duplicate orders personally for D.H. Hill who read it and put it away for safe keeping. An official copy had been made for D.H. Hill from Lee's HQ that Jackson was unaware of but those orders never reached Hill.

D.H. Hill was the scapegoat. In typical fashion he vigerously defended himself to his dying day and pulled no punches but he was made the scapegoat of the whole thing.

D.H. Hill only ever recieved Jackson's personally written orders, copied from Jackson's own orders from Lee. If he had recieved Lee's orders as well he would never have allowed such important documents to be misplaced. He was far to thorough a general to do that.

That's right. I forgot about that.

As for your other point, I think you've got your Hill's mixed up. A.P. Hill was in charge at Harper Ferry and famously had his part in the climax of Antietam when he arrived from there to prevent Burnside encircling the ANV. D.H. Hill was involved in the fighting in the Sunken Road at Antietam.

Right, but if Jackson is dead, and AP Hill is commanding Jackson's men, who is commanding the men at Harper's Ferry?
 
Right, but if Jackson is dead, and AP Hill is commanding Jackson's men, who is commanding the men at Harper's Ferry?

Have we gotten mixed up somewhere here?

We were talking about D.H. Hill and him getting command of Jackson's part of the ANV then you asked if "Hill" was in command of Jackson's part of the ANV who was in command at Harpers Ferry.

When you asked that were you refering to Ambrose Powell Hill or Daniel Harvey Hill?

I assumed that since D.H. Hill was the subject of the prior discution that it was him you were asking about not A.P. Hill. As far as I know we were going down the road of D.H. Hill getting Jackson's job after Jackson's death and A.P. Hill retaining his OTL job.
 
Have we gotten mixed up somewhere here?

We were talking about D.H. Hill and him getting command of Jackson's part of the ANV then you asked if "Hill" was in command of Jackson's part of the ANV who was in command at Harpers Ferry.

When you asked that were you refering to Ambrose Powell Hill or Daniel Harvey Hill?

I assumed that since D.H. Hill was the subject of the prior discution that it was him you were asking about not A.P. Hill. As far as I know we were going down the road of D.H. Hill getting Jackson's job after Jackson's death and A.P. Hill retaining his OTL job.

Wait, no, we were going down the road of AP getting Jackson's job, I thought. At least, that's what it says in 67th Tigers post.
 
Wait, no, we were going down the road of AP getting Jackson's job, I thought. At least, that's what it says in 67th Tigers post.

I'm not sure.

I think what 67th Tigers was saying was that, in the event of Jackson's death at 2nd Manassas, Ewell or A.P. Hill would get command of the wing, depending on whether or not Ewell gets taken out of the equation, until D.H. Hill arrives with his forces, at which point the ANV is restructured into a 3 or 4 Corps system with James Longstreet, Richard Ewell, Lafayette McLaws, D.H. Hill or A.P. Hill as the commanders.

I think that either Hill could have done a good job but it needs a bit of clarification.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
Lee had the following command structure in the OTL 2nd Bull Run:

Right Wing (Longstreet):
Longstreet's Division (DR Jones)
Kemper's Division
Wilcox's Division
Evan's Division

Left Wing (Jackson)
Jackson's Division (Taliaferro)
Ewell's Division
The Light Division (AP Hill)

Reserve Wing
RH Anderson's Division

Anderson is nominally under GW Smith, who is back in Richmond with the other division of the wing (McLaws').

Should Jackson get hit, command of the wing goes to Ewell (the 3rd Maj Gen present) and then AP Hill (4th Maj Gen).

When DH Hill arrives with his Dept of NC Wing (DH Hill's and Walker's) then he becomes 2nd Maj Gen if Jackson and Ewell are gone, with AP Hill as 3rd, McLaws 4th and Anderson 5th.

Historically, Jackson retained the 3-4 wing structure during Antietam. Had Jackson and Ewell been hit, it seems mostly likely that AP Hill will simply step up to command that wing. Whether Lee would still put his November 62 reorg into effect (2 large wings) I doubt.
 
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