Stilwell in Europe

[Blackfox5]

General Joe Stilwell went to China in WWII, but originally he was scheduled as a Corps Commander to lead Operation Torch. What would have happened to Stilwell if he went to the European theatre instead?

I assume Stilwell would have commanded the US II Corps instead of Llyod Fredendall in Algeria. If someone knows different, please state so. But assuming he does not botch it like Fredendall did, what would have happened next?

IOTL, Patton - who commanded the Western Task Force in Morocco - took over the US II Corps and eventually lead the 7th Army in the invasion of Sicily before being put in the dog house for slapping a soldier and then lead the Third Army in France. The 7th Army became inactive until it invaded Southern France in Operation Dragoon. Eisenhower's friend and assistant Mark Clark would lead the 5th Army in the invasion of Italy and eventually take over command of the 15th Army Group in Italy.

What would happen if Stilwell was a successful general in Africa? Would he command the 7th Army instead of Patton? If so, what would happen to Patton? Would Clark still become 5th Army commander and invade Italy? What would happen to Stilwell after Sicily? Would he be transferred back home, or would he later command ground forces again - say by leading the 7th Army into France or even commanding the US 6th Army Group (commanded by Jacob Devers IOTL)? Where would Fredendall go if he didn't command in Africa?

Stilwell was a failure as Chief of Staff to Chiang Kai Shek. He did not build a real staff there, and he lacked the political skills in dealing with the Chinese or the British. However, he was a competent battlefield commander and knew how to fight, even if the politics of high level command was beyond him. He was also a favorite of Marshall. I think Marshall would want to keep him in command.

While I would like to think that Mark Clark would be sacked as Fifth Army commander, and it turned over to Stilwell, I think he was too politically connected to Eisenhower to be let go. Clark made multiple mistakes in Italy that should have seen him sacked, but he always got away with them.

What do others think?

 

[lycan]

It was Chiang Kai-Shek who was the failure. He was more interested in fighting the communists than in fighting the Japanese--not that Mao was any better.

 

[katchen]

I think Stilwell would have been more of a team player in Operation Torch. He would not have held out for Sicily rather than an invasion of Sardinia and Corsica like Patton did. If Patton's opinion made the difference, we might have wound up with a crossways invasion of Italy instead of a lengthwise invasion and an armistice with a cut off Mussolini instead of German troops committed to Italy. Whether that would have stopped the Soviet Operation Bagration, I don't know.
As for Patton, if he was switched with Stillwell in China, his life would be an exercise in frustration. Stillwell didn't survive the war, as I recall. So Patton would probably have gotten shot down too.

 

[Dan]

. Stillwell didn't survive the war, as I recall. So Patton would probably have gotten shot down too.

Vinegar Joe survived the war, but only just dying in '46 of Stomach Cancer. He did seem to spend as much time fighting his "Allies" as he did the Japanese though, so maybe going to Europe may have made things worse, especially if you can imagine how Monty and he would have (not gotten along?

 

[lycan]

Maybe Patton would have slapped Chiang

 

[Blackfox5]

I'm not interested in speculation about China without Stilwell so I ask people to stay with the original post about the situation in Europe. However, I want to make some brief comments.

It was Chiang Kai-Shek who was the failure. He was more interested in fighting the communists than in fighting the Japanese--not that Mao was any better.

This was the common myth repeated from the 1940s to the 1980s, but it's been decisively refuted nowadays. Chiang certainly realized how much of a threat the Chinese Communists were, but the bulk of his forces were arrayed against Japan.

Chiang did not initiate offensive actions after 1940 because he realized it was simply beyond the ability of the Chinese army degraded by years of fighting and blockade. However, his forces generally did well in defensive actions. Many books of the immediate postwar era often said that the Chinese and Japanese did not fight other completing ignoring many battles between 1941 and 1944 where hundreds of thousands of men on both sides fought.

Chiang was extremely limited in what he could do because he actually commanded only a small portion of the Chinese army; the rest being lead by warlords of dubious loyalty. His entire strategy had to include political considerations and challenges no other Allied government had to meet. Stilwell and many other Americans in China always ignored this while at the same time being completely duped by the true nature of the CCP.

What really hurt China was the closure of the Burma Road and the destruction or isolation of China's best units Chiang sent to Burma under Stilwell's command. The disaster in Burma - largely caused by Stilwell's ignorance, deliberate insubordination, and his refusal to follow Chiang's instructions - robbed China of its primary mobile reserve Chiang used to shore up fronts. Even with that, China still did fairly well until Ichigo over two years later.

When Albert Wedemeyer finally replaced Stilwell, he discovered that Stilwell never bothered to form an actual staff (despite that being his main job as Chief of Staff), and didn't even leave behind instructions or briefings to his replacement, an unbelievable act of unprofessionalism. Stilwell was contemptuously referred to as the best four star battalion commander for a very good reason - he preferred being a battlefield commander than doing the actual job he was sent to do.

Chiang had many flaws as a commander, but much criticism levelled against him does not adequately assess all the challenges he faced, and the inadvertent damage Stilwell did. Having been raised on the myth, my opinion of Stilwell has declined measurably the more I read about the Sino-Japanese War and compare how much earlier books (like Tuchman's on Stilwell) completely ignore important facts and battles in China in order to support the mythology.

As for Patton, if he was switched with Stillwell in China, his life would be an exercise in frustration.

The United States Army is not going to send its leading expert on armored warfare to China. Patton will remain in Europe. The list of candidates of generals sent to China will include lots of high ranking generals on staff in the Pentagon whom most people would never recognize.

 

[Alamo]

The United States Army is not going to send its leading expert on armored warfare to China. Patton will remain in Europe. The list of candidates of generals sent to China will include lots of high ranking generals on staff in the Pentagon whom most people would never recognize.

Perhaps General Drum? I think that he was actually the first pick of Marshall - Stilwell only got the job after Drum decided to hold out for something more important, something which never came. He later changed his mind, but by then it was too late.

 

[Blackfox5]

Does no one have an opinion on the commanders for Sicily/Italy and beyond then?

My limited knowledge suggests Stilwell would command the 7th Army instead of Patton, although Patton would still be greenlighted to command the Third Army or perhaps the First Army in Normandy. Mark Clark would still lead the Fifth Army in Italy, and unfortunately remain in command even after multiple screw ups.

As US units transferred out of the 7th Army to the 5th or to England, it would become a paper command. Stilwell would likely transfer out and assist Harold Alexander as 15th Army Group commander or Ike as Allied Force Headquarters (AFHQ). There his prickly personality would piss off as many British as possible.

At this point, Stilwell would probably either command the 6th Army Group (replacing Devers) for the invasion of southern France or the 15th Army Group when Alexander becomes Supreme Commander of the Mediterranean. I'm thinking the 15th Army Group might be better. Ike wanted Devers out of England and 6th Army Group was a good fit. On the other hand, with a veteran commander like Stilwell available, Clark doesn't get promoted because of his earlier mistakes in Italy.

Stilwell then ends the war as one of the leading US generals in Europe. He is probably on the short list as one of the European generals to serve under MacArthur because of his past experience in China, but ends up not serving after the Bomb is dropped.

There is an outside possibility that by 1945, Stilwell has alienated so many British generals that they refuse to have anything to do with him. In which case, he is transferred to the Pacific Theatre instead and probably winds up in a similar position as he did after leaving China.

Agreements, disagreements?

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

You might want to take a look at the complete list of two & three star generals on hand in 1942, what their roles were at the time, and who stood where on Marshals list.

http://www.generals.dk/nation/USA.html

 

[Simreeve]

Where would Fredendall go if he didn't command in Africa?

China, as the replacement for Stilwell there?

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackfox5
Where would Fredendall go if he didn't command in Africa?

China, as the replacement for Stilwell there?

Fredendal would be unlikely for China. He had 'come up' in the armored forces after 1939, his commands and promotions almost identical to Pattons. In early 1942 he was selected to command the US II Corps and took it to the UK. To remove Fredendall from his role in op Torch you need to change his assignment after training the 1st Armored Div, or leave II Corps out of Op Torch. His background and recent training were entirely oriented towards armored war in Europe, and his lack of diplomatic/political skills were understood by Marshal and Roosevelt.

To clarify a few points: Stillwell was qualified for the China job as he was proficient in Mandarin Chinese. He had spent two tours totaling over five years in China with the US 15th Inf Regiment there, and part of that time had been as the regiment intellegence officer.

Sorting through several bios of Stillwell I found his role in Op Gymnast (the early versions) started in December 1941 when he was reassigned from his place in the US 4th Army/Western Defense Command to plan and eventually command a corps size invasion of Morroco. Stilwells orders to this job came to Ft Ord California 22 Dec according to Tuchmans bio. On 1 Jan 1942, just week later he was called to Marshalls office for discussion of assignment to China. Stilwell endorsed Drum from Marshals list as he was a the sort the nationalist leaders might respect. As he put it 'they think of me as a coolie, a lowly Colonel with muddy boots'. The Drum fiasco came quickly and Stilwells short role in Op Gymnast came to a end in January.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

At this point, Stilwell would probably either command the 6th Army Group (replacing Devers) for the invasion of southern France or the 15th Army Group when Alexander becomes Supreme Commander of the Mediterranean. I'm thinking the 15th Army Group might be better. Ike wanted Devers out of England and 6th Army Group was a good fit. On the other hand, with a veteran commander like Stilwell available, Clark doesn't get promoted because of his earlier mistakes in Italy.

Part of the attraction of Devers was that he managed to get his way with the Brits without the shouting and tears. His role as 6th AG commander started with him dual hatted as Alexanders deputy, giving him two critical positions in organizing the 6th AG out of the forces in italy and the Med.

Earlier Devers had been in charge of US Forces in the UK where among other things he was responsible for completing the US base infrastructure for the ground forces, and the receiving end of Op Bolero as the US forces ramped up in the later half of 1943. In between the UK and 6th AG assignments Devers spent several months as head of the Armored Forces branch in the US.

One observer suggested Devers was so able to make it look easy folks assumed he did nothing or nothing difficult.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Perhaps General Drum? I think that he was actually the first pick of Marshall - Stilwell only got the job after Drum decided to hold out for something more important, something which never came. He later changed his mind, but by then it was too late.

According to the legend Drum showed up in Washington for a one or two day meeting with Stimson concerning reassignment with some forty five staff officers, all dragged away from their jobs in HQ Eastern Defense Command. As commander of the EDC there was some logic to Drums assumption of expeditionary command, but he was assuming a bit too much to quickly.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

What would happen if Stilwell was a successful general in Africa? Would he command the 7th Army instead of Patton?

He would have to be withdrawn from command on the Tunisian battlefield early to take over a role in 7th Army/Sicily. In these campaigns Ike had two US HQ operating, while one executed current operations the other planned the future operation. That is, while II Corps fought the Tunisian campaign Patton and embryonic cell in Ikes HQ that became 7th Army planned the 7th Army role in Sicily, and as that came to maturity a embryonic 5th Army HQ emerged and began planning operations in Italy. After the Scillian campaign closed 7th Army HQ reverted to a planning role for Anvil & other proposed operations.

Patton as the underemployed US corps commander in the spring of 1943 was the logical first choice for heading up the 7th Armys planning and eventual command.

 

[ivanotter]

Lots of insights.

I would (based on myth?) have thought Stilwell in Europe would have been the cause of WW III between US and Britain - inclusive of nuclear exchange from 1945 and onwards.

Just goes to show.

 

[Anaxagoras]

I assume Stilwell would have commanded the US II Corps instead of Llyod Fredendall in Algeria.

He'd do a better job than Fredendall, but then so would my three-month-old daughter.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Getting back to the OP... Note that Stilwells appointment to a role in a African invasion dates to December 1941. In the eleven months between that and the actual execution of this invasion many changes could have occured. The substitute for Gen Drum in China was just the first to come along. Assignment to the South Pacific for a corps & eventual army command is not impossible in the summer of 1942. I dont know if Generals Patch or Eichelberger had any particular advantage over Stilwell in this respect.

Another possibility is he is moved up from corps command to Eisenhowers staff as a deputy commander, or as a staff supernumary like Clark, Bradley, & several others. Yet another is he instead of Devers is sent to the UK to command US forces there after Op Torch takes off.

 

[Gannt the chartist]

It depends on his performance as a Corps Commander. He seems to have had limited sympathy with the difficulties of troops in the field and provoked a very strong reaction from subordinates for asking the impossible.

He may have reason for this but in Africa one of two things. He pushes too far and ends up in a disaster like Fredendall but for different reasons when the Germans counterattack or he is successful in Corps command eclipses one of Bradley or Patton ( Bradley most like). Who gets another job as Ikes troubleshooter.

 

[Blackfox5]

He would have to be withdrawn from command on the Tunisian battlefield early to take over a role in 7th Army/Sicily. In these campaigns Ike had two US HQ operating, while one executed current operations the other planned the future operation. That is, while II Corps fought the Tunisian campaign Patton and embryonic cell in Ikes HQ that became 7th Army planned the 7th Army role in Sicily, and as that came to maturity a embryonic 5th Army HQ emerged and began planning operations in Italy. After the Scillian campaign closed 7th Army HQ reverted to a planning role for Anvil & other proposed operations.

Patton as the underemployed US corps commander in the spring of 1943 was the logical first choice for heading up the 7th Armys planning and eventual command.

This is good information, but it makes me have a very big question. Since Patton was in command of the US II Corps during the Tunisian Campaign, why did he command the 7th Army in Sicily? According to your logic, that would not have happened. Patton took over from Fredendall on March 6, 1943. The Tunisian Campaign ended on May 13. Invasion of Sicily happened on July 10. Doesn't sound like Patton was underemployed in the spring - he was in active command all that time.

I understand a paperwork staff for the 7th Army worked on various plans while the battle in Tunisian was being fought. But it doesn't seem like it's impossible for the commander in Tunisia to not take over the 7th Army because that's what happened IOTL. Or am I missing something?

 

[Blackfox5]

Getting back to the OP... Note that Stilwells appointment to a role in a African invasion dates to December 1941. In the eleven months between that and the actual execution of this invasion many changes could have occured. The substitute for Gen Drum in China was just the first to come along.

This is an excellent point.

Assignment to the South Pacific for a corps & eventual army command is not impossible in the summer of 1942. I dont know if Generals Patch or Eichelberger had any particular advantage over Stilwell in this respect.

Patch was only a major general commanding a division already in the Pacific when he was sent to Guadalcanal. Stilwell wouldn't have replaced him due to his seniority. You are right that Eichelberger was a corps commander like Stilwell when MacArthur requested one for New Guinea so it's possible Stilwell may have been selected instead. However, I know one reason Marshall sent Eichelberger was for his previous experience of working with Mac when he was Army Chief of Staff. So I think Stilwell avoids serving in the Pacific in 1942 since unlike Eichelberger, he doesn't already have a working relationship with Mac.

Another possibility is he is moved up from corps command to Eisenhowers staff as a deputy commander, or as a staff supernumary like Clark, Bradley, & several others. Yet another is he instead of Devers is sent to the UK to command US forces there after Op Torch takes off.

This is a good point, but considering Marshall thinks Stilwell is the US Army's best corps commander, I would think they would want him to command troops in battle fairly soon. If Stilwell doesn't command a Task Force in Torch, but is an assistant to Eisenhower, I think he takes over Clark's role as commanding the 5th Army for Italy.