Steel Mammoths: An Alternate North America

So this is a spinoff of my No North American Megafauna Extinction thread. That thread ended up becoming a discussion of how the extinction of the North American megafauna could be avoided. This one will focus on the aftermath.

Our starting point:
The Younger Dryas cold period doesn't have nearly the same impact it did in our timeline, lessening the impact of the Pleistocene extinction. While their numbers are reduced, and some species perish, most genera of North American megafauna survive. In particular, North America will have horses, camels, mammoths, direwolves, and saber-toothed cats. The first three will be available as beasts of burden - assume they are as domesticable as their Old World counterparts. The latter will have no real impact on technology, but will play a major role in North American culture. If you can think of any other animals that might be useful, I'm happy to throw them in, but I want there to be SOME extinction.

I've had a few thoughts on how things might proceed:

1.
The cradle of American civilization will likely be Mesoamerica. Historically, that was where agriculture first developed independently in the New World. I see the Olmecs serving as our equivalent of Sumer and Babylon. Of course, there will be key differences related to climate - where the first civilizations in the Old World inhabited a desert, those in the New World will inhabit a jungle.

2.
The Caribbean might serve as an equivalent to the Mediterranean. If nothing else, it will be a critical laboratory for maritime technology. But unlike the Med, the Caribbean isn't well sheltered from the Atlantic, especially in the hurricane department. This might actually force naval tech to advance more quickly, or it might hold it back.

3.
I think the eastern US will be our Europe. North America's geography might lend itself better to a China-type hegemony, but I'd rather not go that route. The Sioux will become our equivalent of the Mongols and Tatars.

4.
I'm also wondering what will become of the Inca and the West Coast peoples. There will have to be some discussion as to why the Inca never reached the Bronze Age, and whether they might pull it off in this timeline. I also think that a distinct civilization could emerge on the West Coast, which has significant geographic barriers to contact. Something like East Asia without China and India's sheer size.

So, without further ado, let the speculation begin!
 
I like to think about when the Euopeans come, then what would happen?

Depends. If the first real contact occurs in 1492, then I imagine the Europeans will quickly overrun the Caribbean, but I doubt they'll take over the mainland the way they did in OTL. They might take a few nations, but their tech advantage will disappear before they can get very far inland.

However, it's very possible that American sailing technology will be comparable to that in Europe. If the Algonquian people develop longboats, I think they could reach Greenland... or even Iceland. If so, we might have our first real contact nearly 500 years earlier.
 

katchen

Banned
Don;'t forget ground sloths, wooly rhinoceroses and short faced bears. And mega sized elk. And moose. Moose may not be megafauna, (though they get pretty big) but they, along with caribou CAN be domesticated. Both can even be ridden by fully grown people.
And don't forget the copper deposits in both the Southwest (IOTL Utah and Arizona) and the Keewanaw Peninsula extending into Gichee Gumi (Lake Superior)
 
If these *Amerindians have been living alongside domesticated peccaries, horses, and camels for a few thousand years there will probably have been much more disease crossover than IOTL. Rather than inoculating them to European pathogens this will probably just result in significantly more virulent illness going back across to Europe.

So when 1492 hits you may see massive epidemics rage over the globe as two different sets of germs and disease are exposed to populations with no resistance.
 
Don;'t forget ground sloths, wooly rhinoceroses and short faced bears. And mega sized elk. And moose. Moose may not be megafauna, (though they get pretty big) but they, along with caribou CAN be domesticated. Both can even be ridden by fully grown people.
And don't forget the copper deposits in both the Southwest (IOTL Utah and Arizona) and the Keewanaw Peninsula extending into Gichee Gumi (Lake Superior)


-Wooly rhinceros wasnt part of pleistocene north american ecosystems
-Moose is megafauna

-considering that Equus ferus was present in north america, and most, if not all (depends on whetever vicugna is ancestor, or just close relative of alpaca) camelids were domesticated, I wouldnt have problems with these two, a horse + llama + dog + turkey is pretty good package (im coparsion what they had OTL)
 
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If these *Amerindians have been living alongside domesticated peccaries, horses, and camels for a few thousand years there will probably have been much more disease crossover than IOTL. Rather than inoculating them to European pathogens this will probably just result in significantly more virulent illness going back across to Europe.

So when 1492 hits you may see massive epidemics rage over the globe as two different sets of germs and disease are exposed to populations with no resistance.

Absolutely. Unless, of course, there's that two-way contact in the Viking era I proposed. Then it'll hit earlier. Either way, it won't end well for anyone.

I've already decided that short-faced bears will be among the species that DID go extinct. Probably the ground sloths too - they would have been easy prey for hunters. But they died for a noble cause: that the mammoths might live.

katchen, thanks for that information. I'll definitely make sure to make Michigan one of the early civilizations. Probably the Navajo or Anasazi too. Does anyone know where I could find out what mineral resources in the Americas would have been easily accessible?
 
I know their were small deposits of copper & Iron thought New England that jumped started the Industrial development after ARW. not the exact locations, though many were close to the Fall Line...Hence the Growth of the Mill Towns though out the 19th Century.
 
1.
The cradle of American civilization will likely be Mesoamerica. Historically, that was where agriculture first developed independently in the New World. I see the Olmecs serving as our equivalent of Sumer and Babylon. Of course, there will be key differences related to climate - where the first civilizations in the Old World inhabited a desert, those in the New World will inhabit a jungle.

Don't forget that the Andes developed agriculture, among other things, on their own as well.
 
Don't forget that the Andes developed agriculture, among other things, on their own as well.

True. Problem is that they're somewhat isolated, so they won't be as impacted by developments in North America.

The good news is that the Inca are likely to avoid being conquered by the Spanish. The bad news is that they might get conquered by the Maya.
 
What is the POD for advancing technology in the Americas?

Simply allowing domesticated beasts of burden is not going to do it.
 
I'm not sure about mammoths being domesticatable. African elephants sure aren't. And if American lions and cheetahs survive, then indigenous civilizations could work them into a hunting tradition like the Assyrians and Egyptians did (though it's possible they could have a less ritualized approach to lions, like African cultures did).
 
I would stay away from using too many OTL tribe; after all, the POD is many thousands of years ago. Although members of the different language groups will likely still be around, the tribes themselves will not develop as in OTL.

To give you just one example; you mention the Sioux still being on the Great Plains. Howevee, in OTL, they were rather late migrants to that region after being pushed out of Minnesota and parts of Wisconsin by the Ojibway. Also, what we see as the nomadic plains culture did not develop until comparatively late, as a result of the introduction of the horse (many of the stereotypical plains tribes were actually late arrivals who took advantage of this new technology in order to push out the original peoples of the area). In your ATL, with horses already being in America, this culture will start much, much sooner and would involve different peoples.
 
What are the possibilities that the Direwolf could become domesticated? If some of the early ancestors of domesticated dogs were wolves, could we see the same happen with their larger ancestors?
 
What are the possibilities that the Direwolf could become domesticated? If some of the early ancestors of domesticated dogs were wolves, could we see the same happen with their larger ancestors?
Would the domisticated Direwold be called Diredog or Weredog?:p
 
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