Steam Power before Scientific Revolution

We often explore the idea of earlier steam power, and we often conflate it with two other ideas: an earlier industrial revolution and an earlier scientific revolution. I’ve noticed that, while the first does get lots of pushback, the latter doesn’t. Perhaps this is due to the adage that ‘science owes more to the steam engine than the steam engine owes science.’

Be that as it may, what if the steam engine came into wide use long before the modern scientific method is develped? Tinkerers come up with a useful steam engine, and use of it propagates throughout the known world. Should we assume that it will quickly lead to a scientific method as people tinker further with the engine? Or could the engine become widespread without further technological advancements?
 
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We often explore the idea of earlier steam piwer, and we often conflate it with two other ideas: an earlier industrial revolution and an earlier scientific revolution. I’ve noticed that, while the first does get lots of pushback, the latter doesn’t. Perhaps this is due to the adage that ‘science owes more to the steam engine than the steam engine owes science.’

Be that as it may, what if the steam engine came into wide use long before the modern scientific method is develped? Tinkerers come up with a useful steam engine, and use of it propagates throughout the known world. Should we assume that it will quickly lead to a scientific method as people tinker further with the engine? Or could the engine become widespread without further technological advancements?

Well... widespread use how? One of the things that needs to be considered is that the engine can't be more than a curiosity in isolation: to use it on a large scale you need to construct a system around it including efficent fuel collection, machines that can efficently utalize its mechanical power, and transport networks to bring the fuel to the engine and distribute the products of its efforts to a consumer market not sitting right next to the factory. This nessecitates a climate of innovation and rationalization/greater uniformity/scaling up, which while it dosen't in and of itself lead to the scientific methoid will certain increase communication, the demand for and supply of individuals with the resources, education, and inclination to pusue science (Tinkering will only be so efficent, and once you get the idea that establishing a standard pattern increases the rate of production materially its only a matter of time before somebody does the same intellectually), and amount of power available to meet a diverse set of demands adding to the push for ways to harness steam power to meet those needs. So, you'll at least get more technological advancement in the mechanical sense, and the wealth that creates feeds into intellectual development
 
Well... widespread use how? One of the things that needs to be considered is that the engine can't be more than a curiosity in isolation: to use it on a large scale you need to construct a system around it including efficent fuel collection, machines that can efficently utalize its mechanical power, and transport networks to bring the fuel to the engine and distribute the products of its efforts to a consumer market not sitting right next to the factory. This nessecitates a climate of innovation and rationalization/greater uniformity/scaling up, which while it dosen't in and of itself lead to the scientific methoid will certain increase communication, the demand for and supply of individuals with the resources, education, and inclination to pusue science (Tinkering will only be so efficent, and once you get the idea that establishing a standard pattern increases the rate of production materially its only a matter of time before somebody does the same intellectually), and amount of power available to meet a diverse set of demands adding to the push for ways to harness steam power to meet those needs. So, you'll at least get more technological advancement in the mechanical sense, and the wealth that creates feeds into intellectual development

I’m not sure I can agree to all of that. Rather, I’m not sure that it naturally leads to such an inherent increase in the scientific inlinations of a society. If that were true, we would see a similar (if vastly smaller) trend as societies adopted the waterwheel.

I’m open to that suggestion. Perhaps it is not a coincidence that the scholastic movement occurred around the time of the medieval industrial revolution (monasteries, particularly cistercian, were strong proponents of economic development). I am skeptical, however. I could just as easily see a sort of economc equilibrium trap set in. If, of course, we buy into the idea of economic equilibrium traps.
 
I’m not sure I can agree to all of that. Rather, I’m not sure that it naturally leads to such an inherent increase in the scientific inlinations of a society. If that were true, we would see a similar (if vastly smaller) trend as societies adopted the waterwheel.

I’m open to that suggestion. Perhaps it is not a coincidence that the scholastic movement occurred around the time of the medieval industrial revolution (monasteries, particularly cistercian, were strong proponents of economic development). I am skeptical, however. I could just as easily see a sort of economc equilibrium trap set in. If, of course, we buy into the idea of economic equilibrium traps.

Which is why I started with the most important question: what are these steam engines being used on a large scale for? I just can't see a practical cost-effective use for them that dosen't assume the start of the market revolution and mass infastructure growth that is part and parcel with a growing wealth and higher productivity/standard of living. Unlike wind and waterwheels, which can be built and maintained fairly easily and be useful in a localized economy (Your peasents can do no skill labor, having some skilled woodworkers can fufill a wider variety of specialized needs for the estate in other times, you can enforce use of the mill and collect payment as a share of flour, ect.) and merely requires being near a source of running water which almost always good sites for communities anyways. Steam engines, however, are far more of a commercial venture: they need constant input to run; preferably in the form of coal which can't be collected from near;y as wide a strech of regions as food. Where you can get it its not usually close to population centers, and coal miners can't be lightly managed self-sufficent; they need to be provided with the nessecities of life or the means and surronding infastructure with which to purchase them rather than expecting the household to do so. You HAVE to find some saleable commodity you can produce with it and people to sell it to in order to keep the system running, so its either the system reforms economically or the steam engine fails to catch on and stay relevent as wind. water, and animal power is more efficent and available in virtually any circumstance somebody would face.
 
We often explore the idea of earlier steam piwer, and we often conflate it with two other ideas: an earlier industrial revolution and an earlier scientific revolution. I’ve noticed that, while the first does get lots of pushback, the latter doesn’t. Perhaps this is due to the adage that ‘science owes more to the steam engine than the steam engine owes science.’

Be that as it may, what if the steam engine came into wide use long before the modern scientific method is develped? Tinkerers come up with a useful steam engine, and use of it propagates throughout the known world. Should we assume that it will quickly lead to a scientific method as people tinker further with the engine? Or could the engine become widespread without further technological advancements?

I think it that Hero of Alexandria's model could have been developed upon and applied to turning the wheels of industry. Perhaps there would be a delay but the designs could have been saved in the Libraries of Alexandria and Constantinople. Steam powered looms could have possibly been powering the East Mediterranean textile industry or steam pumps draining Egyptian swamps by the time of Justinian. With these new inventions widespread, their benefits increasingly understood, I think the incentive to develop them further would become more organised and nurture a scientific method of sorts, initially with a head start in the engineering sector.
 
you can use charcoal as a fuel, which can be produced from any woodland (though you might need tree farms dedicated for its production in high quantities) and it performs just about as well as coal, sometimes better depending on the system
 
you can use charcoal as a fuel, which can be produced from any woodland (though you might need tree farms dedicated for its production in high quantities) and it performs just about as well as coal, sometimes better depending on the system

Physically, yes,but practically and profitably? Taking that much of your limited landholdings out production for decades is an AWEFUL big oppritunity cost, not to mention the enforcing of that enclosure and management of resources. What is the landowner and steam engine owner getting out of this that's worth the increased risk and cost? It has to be something that can accommodate many engines, since it's pointed out these are in widespread use,and if you haven't gotten your market revolution theres real limits to demand.
 
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