Stauffenberg brings an aide

What if Stauffenberg realized that setting the bombs will be hard for him because of his missing fingers. What if he brings an Anti Hitler junior officer, with ten fingers to assist him. The aide is able to set both bombs before the meeting. The blast kills Hitler. The coup goes forward. The SS arrests the plotters. With the SS in control of the main government buildings. Himmler arrests Goering and takes power. He begins to purge the military. Many officers on the Western front surrender. The WAllies move quickly through France and into Germany. There is a power struggle that cripples the German military machine. On December 16, 1944, VE Day, Germany surrenders. On March 16, 1945, the USSR declares war on Japan and invades Manchukuo. In April 1945, WAllied European veterans arrive in the Pacific. They got there in time for the invasion of Okinawa. Okinawa surrenders on May 15, 1945, The bombing and blockade of Japan becomes more intense. Hirohito surrenders on August 3rd. 1945. The atomic bomb is a military secret until 1949 until the Soviets announce they have exploded one. The Soviets expel Jiang's government in early 1946. There is no angry charges of who lost China, which helps Truman. The PRC is a Soviet satellite. There is no Great Leap Forward or Cultural Revolution. Deng takes power and the Soviets encourage his free market reforms. They hope that he will help China become less dependent on Soviet aide. There is no playing the China card. US China relations open up under Reagan, after corporations eager to cash in on the lucrative China trade, lobby for it.
 
What if Stauffenberg realized that setting the bombs will be hard for him because of his missing fingers. What if he brings an Anti Hitler junior officer, with ten fingers to assist him. The aide is able to set both bombs before the meeting. The blast kills Hitler. The coup goes forward. The SS arrests the plotters. With the SS in control of the main government buildings. Himmler arrests Goering and takes power. He begins to purge the military. Many officers on the Western front surrender. The WAllies move quickly through France and into Germany. There is a power struggle that cripples the German military machine. On December 16, 1944, VE Day, Germany surrenders. On March 16, 1945, the USSR declares war on Japan and invades Manchukuo. In April 1945, WAllied European veterans arrive in the Pacific. They got there in time for the invasion of Okinawa. Okinawa surrenders on May 15, 1945, The bombing and blockade of Japan becomes more intense. Hirohito surrenders on August 3rd. 1945. The atomic bomb is a military secret until 1949 until the Soviets announce they have exploded one. The Soviets expel Jiang's government in early 1946. There is no angry charges of who lost China, which helps Truman. The PRC is a Soviet satellite. There is no Great Leap Forward or Cultural Revolution. Deng takes power and the Soviets encourage his free market reforms. They hope that he will help China become less dependent on Soviet aide. There is no playing the China card. US China relations open up under Reagan, after corporations eager to cash in on the lucrative China trade, lobby for it.

and all that from one aid with 10 fingers? Imagine that:p

You sir, believe in butterflies. And in that TL the butter flies everywhere.

Why would the plotters be arrested? Confirmed kill of Hitler puts Valkyrie into motion. SS is disarmed, Goebbels is arrested and probably Himmler and Goring too. Beck takes over as Head of State, if everything goes well.
 
Why would the plotters be arrested? Confirmed kill of Hitler puts Valkyrie into motion. SS is disarmed, Goebbels is arrested and probably Himmler and Goring too. Beck takes over as Head of State, if everything goes well.[/QUOTE]

How are they going to disarm the SS?
 
The idea of the plot was the Army would support Beck taking control of the government and the SS would not be able to stop them. If it appears the Army is organized and is going to wind up in control of Germany I think the SS falls apart pretty quick. There would be some die-hards, but I think a lot of the members who joined to advance their own careers would jump ship leaving Himmler with little support.
 
The idea of the plot was the Army would support Beck taking control of the government and the SS would not be able to stop them. If it appears the Army is organized and is going to wind up in control of Germany I think the SS falls apart pretty quick. There would be some die-hards, but I think a lot of the members who joined to advance their own careers would jump ship leaving Himmler with little support.

Interesting I can see that except what happens when Beck tries to make peace with the WAllies and the enemy insists on unconditional surrender.
 
Interesting I can see that except what happens when Beck tries to make peace with the WAllies and the enemy insists on unconditional surrender.

i don't think the Allies would be going for that since the German government surrendering early to the Western Allies would mean less power for the USSR in Germany, most importantly Berlin. With the bulk of the main nazi party dead, arrested or fleeing i think the Western Allies are alright in stopping the fighting. They would still come in as occupiers of course, the terms will be harsh(harsher than Japan) but it won't be unconditional.

With people like Rommel, Tresckow and Beck left in charge to deal with the Allies the surrender would go quite smooth and swift, if the SS is really disbanded.

Soviets would be pissed though. Not sure what the conseuqences of the Eastern Front will be if it happens.
 
Why would the plotters be arrested? Confirmed kill of Hitler puts Valkyrie into motion. SS is disarmed, Goebbels is arrested and probably Himmler and Goring too. Beck takes over as Head of State, if everything goes well.

How are they going to disarm the SS?
The goal of the plotters was to designate high rank nazi as culcripte for the attempt. To explain it to SS and all Germans.
So what did you think the SS troops will if they are told that "Goering and Himmler" have killed Hitler to take power.
They will follow the order and fight for the country.
 
What if Stauffenberg realized that setting the bombs will be hard for him because of his missing fingers. What if he brings an Anti Hitler junior officer, with ten fingers to assist him. The aide is able to set both bombs before the meeting. The blast kills Hitler.
Von Stauffenberg had his aide (von Haeften) with him in the side room when he set the bomb. While the aide couldn't enter the meeting room, he naturally was allowed to assist von Stauffenberg in refreshing himself. He had to prepare the bomb himself anyway since von Haeften refused to be directly responsible for the murder attempt. As had many others due to various reasons ranging from religious concerns to being unable to contemplate active treason against their oaths. Von Stauffenberg was one of the few in the entire conspiracy really willing to press home and take responsibility - which is why the plot was doomed to fail since he would have had to be in two places at once (carrying out the assassination and then immediately taking charge in Berlin) in order to be successful.

Anyway, far more crucial was that von Stauffenberg had brought two packets of explosives and only managed to activate the timer of one of them before he was interrupted by a guard entering the room (oh-crap-moment #189), who asked him to return to the meeting. Then, for whatever reason, Stauffenberg handed the second bomb back to his aide instead of placing it with the first one in his briefcase. There's absolutely no reason why the primed bomb shouldn't have been able to also explode the second one... I guess the only excuse is the intense high stress situation the two conspirators were under with a guard standing in the door while they had explosives lying in front of them.

So, keeping that in mind, I propose as a minimalist PoD that von Haeften doesn't lose his wits in the situation and gently puts the explosives offered to him into von Stauffenberg's briefcase instead of his own. As a result, we have a more powerful blast which would probably have killed everyone in the room.
 
Anyway, far more crucial was that von Stauffenberg had brought two packets of explosives and only managed to activate the timer of one of them before he was interrupted by a guard entering the room (oh-crap-moment #189), who asked him to return to the meeting. Then, for whatever reason, Stauffenberg handed the second bomb back to his aide instead of placing it with the first one in his briefcase. There's absolutely no reason why the primed bomb shouldn't have been able to also explode the second one... I guess the only excuse is the intense high stress situation the two conspirators were under with a guard standing in the door while they had explosives lying in front of them.

Should've rendered the guard unconscious. The successful explosion would have covered it up.

#ItsWhatBondWouldHaveDone
 
Should've rendered the guard unconscious. The successful explosion would have covered it up.

#ItsWhatBondWouldHaveDone
In a Bond movie that probably would have been a comical moment in which the guard immediately sees the bomb and makes an exaggerated double take - which Bond uses to throw the bomb at him while closing for melee. Followed by a wild shoot-out in the compound while chasing Hitler across various obstacles, no doubt. :)

Since von Stauffenberg still had to deposit his briefcase in the meeting room, hold his presentation and then leave according to schedule- without anyone being the wiser - that's not really practical. I don't remember who the guard was but they probably were part of the military staff needed for running the meetings, so not someone who could just disappear for a while. Someone probably had him in their sight while he stood in that door, too. If not that, they were certainly in hearing range of other people.

Luckily for von Stauffenberg, they had deliberately placed themselves with their backs to the door to cover what they were doing. Best choice really would have been to just place the second bomb along the primed first one. Instead of having a mental misfire and taking one of it back with them to the security checkpoints.
 
How plausible is Stauffenberg aborting the mission and trying it again later? Would they have been discovered? If that happens less conspirators are discovered no doubt.

If not the second try then being successfull and with Himmler present, somewhere in August or September?

I think that would be interesting, with the Allies and Soviets closing in even further. You would have Dragoon in action, Paris taken, Soviets entering Estonia, Florence taken. Maybe if it is delayed untill October the Allies would have landed in Greece already and the Soviets take Riga.

Less and less options for the conspirators and more determination.
 
I don't think the Allies would be going for that since the German government surrendering early to the Western Allies would mean less power for the USSR in Germany, most importantly Berlin.
Yes they would still be demanding unconditional surrender. From the American point of view Germany has started two world wars in the space of thirty years and managed to drag them into both of them, they were damn sure that they weren't going to be allowed a third chance. That means unconditional surrender and occupation so that the German population unequivocally sees that they were beaten militarily, no second Dolchstosslegende, and that their society can be purged of Nazi/undesirable elements and rebuilt along capitalist and democratic lines. Anything else just wouldn't be acceptable. You're also using way too much hindsight worrying about Soviet power in Berlin or Eastern Europe since at this point senior Americans like FDR still trust Stalin and expect him to keep his word, they certainly aren't going to double cross him by violating the no separate peace agreements that have been made.


With people like Rommel, Tresckow and Beck left in charge to deal with the Allies the surrender would go quite smooth and swift, if the SS is really disbanded.
Have you see the terms that they were going to try and demand? Being allowed to retain the 1914 borders, the Anschluss to remain in place with Austria a part of Germany, no occupation, the Germans to investigate and try any allegations of war crimes themselves, and a host of other things. They quite simply weren't in touch with reality. If they try and demand these terms the Western Allies response is going to be quite literally laugh in their faces and reply 'Unconditional surrender now'.
 
How plausible is Stauffenberg aborting the mission and trying it again later? Would they have been discovered? If that happens less conspirators are discovered no doubt.
Once the bomb was set and that guard entered the room, there was no easy aborting anymore. I don't think they could have disarmed the chemical timer while being watched, even if that was even possible (no idea how that bomb worked exactly). Their schedule did not permit them leaving the compound before the bomb went up and neither of them would have had the privacy needed. They would still have been stuck in between the security checkpoints. So once that timer was set they were committed. It also wouldn't really have made sense to abort since at that point they're either discovered or everything's still okay. Evidently they didn't realize that one bomb package would not be enough.

They also already were on the second serious try. They had to abort a few days earlier. Some orders for their attempted take-over were sent out already and could only be stopped with a lot of desperate backpedaling after they learned that the actual 'Kill Hitler' part of the plan had been aborted. That's a reason which contributed to the sluggish and half-assed response in the second try - they wanted absolute certainty about a successful assassination of Hitler before they risked this again. The conspiracy was already on the verge of falling apart.
 
Yes they would still be demanding unconditional surrender. From the American point of view Germany has started two world wars in the space of thirty years and managed to drag them into both of them, they were damn sure that they weren't going to be allowed a third chance. That means unconditional surrender and occupation so that the German population unequivocally sees that they were beaten militarily, no second Dolchstosslegende, and that their society can be purged of Nazi/undesirable elements and rebuilt along capitalist and democratic lines. Anything else just wouldn't be acceptable. You're also using way too much hindsight worrying about Soviet power in Berlin or Eastern Europe since at this point senior Americans like FDR still trust Stalin and expect him to keep his word, they certainly aren't going to double cross him by violating the no separate peace agreements that have been made.


Have you see the terms that they were going to try and demand? Being allowed to retain the 1914 borders, the Anschluss to remain in place with Austria a part of Germany, no occupation, the Germans to investigate and try any allegations of war crimes themselves, and a host of other things. They quite simply weren't in touch with reality. If they try and demand these terms the Western Allies response is going to be quite literally laugh in their faces and reply 'Unconditional surrender now'.

Yeah, the negotiations probably won't go smoothly afterall, if they even take place.

But if they push on how they are going to keep stopping the Russians the Allies might listen, especially around the failed Market Garden and the battle of bulge.

But, they would be on the German border by then, why stop? On the other hand, the Soviets were entering Poland. The delay might force them to talk some kind of settlement, to at least have the idea of the German army holding back the Soviets. I think Churchill would approve. No?


Dain said:
Once the bomb was set and that guard entered the room, there was no easy aborting anymore. I don't think they could have disarmed the chemical timer while being watched, even if that was even possible (no idea how that bomb worked exactly). Their schedule did not permit them leaving the compound before the bomb went up and neither of them would have had the privacy needed. They would still have been stuck in between the security checkpoints. So once that timer was set they were committed. It also wouldn't really have made sense to abort since at that point they're either discovered or everything's still okay. Evidently they didn't realize that one bomb package would not be enough.

They also already were on the second serious try. They had to abort a few days earlier. Some orders for their attempted take-over were sent out already and could only be stopped with a lot of desperate backpedaling after they learned that the actual 'Kill Hitler' part of the plan had been aborted. That's a reason which contributed to the sluggish and half-assed response in the second try - they wanted absolute certainty about a successful assassination of Hitler before they risked this again. The conspiracy was already on the verge of falling apart.

But wasn't there supposed to be an abort when Himmler didn't attend the meeting? They could have just simply forgotten about the bombs and stayed till the end of the meeting, then leave without arming anything. right? Its a long time since i saw the movie or read about the actual bombs and timeline. But i'm sure there were times they could have aborted and left without discovery.
 
On the other hand, the Soviets were entering Poland. The delay might force them to talk some kind of settlement, to at least have the idea of the German army holding back the Soviets.

Something the German army is manifestly incapable of doing. The WAllies concluding a peace in the winter of 1944-45 that leaves the Germans with everything east of the Rhine is effectively abandoning all of Europe east of the Rhine to Soviet control.

In any case, Valkyrie was a horribly planned boondoggle. Even with Hitler dead, the most likely result is a counter-coup and period of chaos that results in somewhat greater WAllied and Soviet gains then OTL before Goering takes charge as a sort of figure head. The German war effort is then weakened even more horribly then OTL as without Hitler to provide a mediating source of power, all the various factions within the Nazi Party and German military destroy their own war effort in the infighting. Essentially the end of the war is identical to OTL, but about six months earlier.
 
Something the German army is manifestly incapable of doing. The WAllies concluding a peace in the winter of 1944-45 that leaves the Germans with everything east of the Rhine is effectively abandoning all of Europe east of the Rhine to Soviet control.

In any case, Valkyrie was a horribly planned boondoggle. Even with Hitler dead, the most likely result is a counter-coup and period of chaos that results in somewhat greater WAllied and Soviet gains then OTL before Goering takes charge as a sort of figure head. The German war effort is then weakened even more horribly then OTL as without Hitler to provide a mediating source of power, all the various factions within the Nazi Party and German military destroy their own war effort in the infighting. Essentially the end of the war is identical to OTL, but about six months earlier.

I'm not suggesting the Wallies would allow Germany to stay unoccupied, the Wallies would occupy Germany of course, but the future of the Gernan borders might be a subject of negotiation. And Poland.

Did Hitler mediate in those days? I though all he brought was chaos?
 
I'm not suggesting the Wallies would allow Germany to stay unoccupied, the Wallies would occupy Germany of course, but the future of the Gernan borders might be a subject of negotiation. And Poland.

Further fantasy. The only way the allies could really sustain a surrender demand aimed purely at them with the Germans continuing to fight the Soviets would be for them to actually go to war with the Soviets. Because they're going to have to effectively let German logistical systems and troop columns move around in their territory in order to set them back up to the Soviet front and so on.

To say this is politically impossible is, if anything, an understatement. Your effectively asking the Western public, who had for years now admired the Soviets, to betray their trusted allies in favor of the hated enemy. It would take divine intervention to save Churchill from the no confidence vote in Parliament or Roosevelt from impeachment if they attempted a peace like that.

Either Germany unconditionally surrenders on all fronts or keeps fighting until collapse. The prevailing military-political situation leaves no other outcome. Either way, the result is that the Soviets occupy Poland and Eastern Europe up to the center of Germany (since, you know, their closer).

Did Hitler mediate in those days? I thought all he brought was chaos?
The entire structure of the Third Reich by that point was set-up so that he was the only one who could bring any order to the chaos. The only time anyone had uncontested authority to do something was when executing an express order of the Fuhrer. Otherwise, they had to fight for it through the political system. Nobody else had the right mix of legal authority, charisma, and reputation to do so. This was a deliberate ploy on Hitler's part to prevent challenges to his power from succeeding: divide-and-rule.
 
Last edited:
But if they push on how they are going to keep stopping the Russians the Allies might listen, especially around the failed Market Garden and the Battle of the Bulge.
Again that only makes sense if they for some reason don't trust the Soviets and are looking for ways to screw them, the majority of Western Allied leaders, and just as importantly the public, saw them as friends and allies.


But, they would be on the German border by then, why stop? On the other hand, the Soviets were entering Poland. The delay might force them to talk some kind of settlement, to at least have the idea of the German army holding back the Soviets. I think Churchill would approve. No?
Churchill might have been highly suspicious of Stalin and the Soviets but by this point the balance of power within the Western Allies had tilted firmly in favour of the US, if he proposed anything like this they Americans would think he was mad - the best he could achieve would be to strain relations and burn a lot of credibility and good will.
 
But wasn't there supposed to be an abort when Himmler didn't attend the meeting? They could have just simply forgotten about the bombs and stayed till the end of the meeting, then leave without arming anything. right? Its a long time since i saw the movie or read about the actual bombs and timeline. But i'm sure there were times they could have aborted and left without discovery.
Well, yes, they could have aborted when they found out Himmler wasn't presented. They aborted attempts before. The problem was that they did not have the luxury of waiting for the perfect moment anymore. They had one abort too many, there were rumors that Himmler was on to them and altogether there had been too many close calls with the barely stopped Valkyre orders only a few days before.

People were withdrawing their commitment to the plot. They were losing men every day. There was the very real fear that if they didn't this this day, they'd never get a new attempt because the conspiracy was falling apart. In fact, as it turned out, they were entirely correct about that - only it already was too late. Too much of their conspiracy had already fallen apart for them to have any hope of success.
 
Something the German army is manifestly incapable of doing. The WAllies concluding a peace in the winter of 1944-45 that leaves the Germans with everything east of the Rhine is effectively abandoning all of Europe east of the Rhine to Soviet control.

In any case, Valkyrie was a horribly planned boondoggle. Even with Hitler dead, the most likely result is a counter-coup and period of chaos that results in somewhat greater WAllied and Soviet gains then OTL before Goering takes charge as a sort of figure head. The German war effort is then weakened even more horribly then OTL as without Hitler to provide a mediating source of power, all the various factions within the Nazi Party and German military destroy their own war effort in the infighting. Essentially the end of the war is identical to OTL, but about six months earlier.

Well, IMHO if Hitler kieeld, a counter coup is unlikely. Yes, the Valkyre conspirators were amateurs, the earlier attampts were at least half-hearted, and let to be honest, the german officers were not in the same league with the south american colonels pretty much anywhere in this kind of conspirations.

Still, if we take out Adolf from the picture, i see no one outside of the army to even attempt a counter-coup with any chance. No one have the powerbase, the personal charisma, gravitas to counter any orders coming from either the OKW or the OKH - or any army group command, for that matter.

The question is, after Hitler is killed, what happens in the upper echelons of the army. Of course, some rabble and even the sumamry execution or some handguns with one round is not out of the question and Jodl and Keitel may try to raise some ruckus, but the non-army potentates suddenly found themselves powerless, maybe with a bunch of uncooperative underlings (as it hapened in OTLs last months).

Of course, when they sort themselves out and aks for terms, they got them: unconditional surrender. Maybe they can bargain out some minor conditions, probably not. Maybe they will try to hold on in a vain attempt to avoid this, but they already realized the fact, that they lost the war.

IMHO, the most that they can do for trolling (and in an attempt to deny a soviet sattelite nex to germany) is to evacuate Poland and return control to the Home Army and the government in exile.
 
Top