The Lombard League never left the Empire.
Now, the thing is, just as practically any medieval state the HRE did not have a coherant constitution, so any legal handling of it will always be murky. On the most basic level, though, secession should not be legally possible, because it violates the feudal oath the princes theoretically made to the very end of the HRE. Nevertheless, de facto it happened, of course - either by war (Switzerland in the Swabian War) or by the Emperor not caring (when France forced the Duke of Bar to receive some of his lands back as French fief, that was de facto those territories leaving the Empire for France, in a way), or by the Empire basically writing off the territories (Italy was not included in teh late 15th/early 16th century Imperial reforms, and for example not divdied into Imperial Circles like Germany, despite theoretically still belonging to the Empire - techncially and de facto that was Italy being written off) Or of course, by external imposition of it (Westphalian Treaty, where the HRE theoretically lost the Northern Netherlands and Italy, and the loss of Switzerland was recognized).
And of course, the HRE ended when states formally left en masse for the Rhine Confederation in 1806. Legally, that wasnt possible, of course, but those were the facts on the ground recognized by everybdoy (at latest by the Congress of Vienna)
And besides, as the Empire became increasingly irrelevant there simply was no real need to leave it. The Imperial border ran right through the Austrian and the Prussian domains, for example, and that didnt mean much...
Well, yes, but if you want to generalise it to that extent you could say that about just anything in diplomacy and law!Basicly you are saying that the moment other people accept you left the empire, you left the empire.
You're right. You need a situation where the HRE still matters enough that you want to leave, but is not strong enough to enforce it. It more or less only happened on the irrelevant border areas of the empire noone really cared about. No emperor had ever really cared about the Netherlands (except probably Charles V) Italy (at least not anymore in the 16th century) or Switzerland, so they let them go.
Well, yes, but if you want to generalise it to that extent you could say that about just anything in diplomacy and law!
Hm. Now, if the aformentioned Imperial Reforms actually go somewhere - the Imperial Circles have a meaning, Imperial Diet and Imperial Court are actually strong and have authority, etc., then some states might object to becoming "Circlefied" and hence put under increasing Impeiral control. Say, for example, that it works so well in Germany that the Empire also begins to draw up Circles for Switzerland and Italy... and then the Reformation strikes, so that while the Empire has meaning, it is at least momentarily too weak and internally divided to go against every rebellion.
Ok, that's true. But what I meant was that there was no standard procedure of leaving the empire, like fill in the forms and hand them over to the emperor in triplet, go to the pope ask for his consent and get at least 5 nations to recognise you among which at least England or France (while non-Catholic nations only count for half).Well, yes, but if you want to generalise it to that extent you could say that about just anything in diplomacy and law!![]()
But the circle seem to have worked well in South Germany, but the farther north you got the less meaning they had. In Swabia as a example the circle was active used to organise co-operation between the Princes, While Nieder- and Obersachsens circles lost completely meaning after the 30YW. It seem the smaller the local princely domains were the greater meaning the circles kept. It was only with Franz Joseph had his focus on development of Habsburg land rather trying to keep power in the Empire that the circles lost their last meaning as imperial "provinces".
Well, a combination of the first and the third option was how Prussia got its royal crownPompejus said:But what I meant was that there was no standard procedure of leaving the empire, like fill in the forms and hand them over to the emperor in triplet, go to the pope ask for his consent and get at least 5 nations to recognise you among which at least England or France (while non-Catholic nations only count for half).
the Empire basically writing off the territories (Italy was not included in teh late 15th/early 16th century Imperial reforms, and for example not divdied into Imperial Circles like Germany, despite theoretically still belonging to the Empire - techncially and de facto that was Italy being written off)
Or of course, by external imposition of it (Westphalian Treaty, where the HRE theoretically lost the Northern Netherlands and Italy, and the loss of Switzerland was recognized).
Well, the Swabian and the Franconian Circle worked. And that was it, basically, I would say.
Well, Savoy proper (without Piedmont) remained an Imperial exclave at Westphalia. That changed at some war or other (I imagine), but I have no idea which...No doubt imperial control of Italy was minimal. Nevertheless, the dukes of Savoy prided themselves as "Imperial Vicars" at least until the Thirty Years War, and also tried to fulfill this role when dealing with their neighbors. Oh, you mean they should also have acted as such towards the Emperor? Hm ...
Hm, true, thats a good point.Anyway, the imperial claim to Italy was still strong enough in the 1620s that the Emperor could not easily stay out of the Mantuan mayhem without losing face ...
Yes. What I meant with theoretically was Italy - that is, theoretically lost at Wetsphalia, de facto largely lost already before.Didn't the Westphalian Treaty also recognize Dutch independence explicitly?
Well, but at least it continued to have a working army structure etc.The Swabian Circle failed when Max of Bavaria took the city of Donauwörth (1607-ish) and nobody hindered him.
Because district is an incredibly broad word. It could mean anything, really.Funny question: How come that the litteral translation "Imperial Circle" is used in English?
To me it sounds rather clumsy; I would think "Imperial District" were a much better translation.
Doesn't it get used as a translation of "-gau" sometimes?Because district is an incredibly broad word. It could mean anything, really.