States able to leave Holy Roman empire?

Like what the Lombard league did, would this be possible in the case of a large uprising or a particularly bad war? I'm thinking specificlly Bohemia wise, but could this apply to the others too? And what would the example set for the other German states within the Empire?
 

Susano

Banned
The Lombard League never left the Empire.

Now, the thing is, just as practically any medieval state the HRE did not have a coherant constitution, so any legal handling of it will always be murky. On the most basic level, though, secession should not be legally possible, because it violates the feudal oath the princes theoretically made to the very end of the HRE. Nevertheless, de facto it happened, of course - either by war (Switzerland in the Swabian War) or by the Emperor not caring (when France forced the Duke of Bar to receive some of his lands back as French fief, that was de facto those territories leaving the Empire for France, in a way), or by the Empire basically writing off the territories (Italy was not included in teh late 15th/early 16th century Imperial reforms, and for example not divdied into Imperial Circles like Germany, despite theoretically still belonging to the Empire - techncially and de facto that was Italy being written off) Or of course, by external imposition of it (Westphalian Treaty, where the HRE theoretically lost the Northern Netherlands and Italy, and the loss of Switzerland was recognized).

And of course, the HRE ended when states formally left en masse for the Rhine Confederation in 1806. Legally, that wasnt possible, of course, but those were the facts on the ground recognized by everybdoy (at latest by the Congress of Vienna)

Bohemia, though - Bohemia had too often been at the heart of the Empire. The Luxemburg dynasty had its residence there, and so had many Habsburg Emperors. You really need to have a dynasty ruling there who is not also currently the imperial line, really...

And besides, as the Empire became increasingly irrelevant there simply was no real need to leave it. The Imperial border ran right through the Austrian and the Prussian domains, for example, and that didnt mean much...
 
The Lombard League never left the Empire.

Now, the thing is, just as practically any medieval state the HRE did not have a coherant constitution, so any legal handling of it will always be murky. On the most basic level, though, secession should not be legally possible, because it violates the feudal oath the princes theoretically made to the very end of the HRE. Nevertheless, de facto it happened, of course - either by war (Switzerland in the Swabian War) or by the Emperor not caring (when France forced the Duke of Bar to receive some of his lands back as French fief, that was de facto those territories leaving the Empire for France, in a way), or by the Empire basically writing off the territories (Italy was not included in teh late 15th/early 16th century Imperial reforms, and for example not divdied into Imperial Circles like Germany, despite theoretically still belonging to the Empire - techncially and de facto that was Italy being written off) Or of course, by external imposition of it (Westphalian Treaty, where the HRE theoretically lost the Northern Netherlands and Italy, and the loss of Switzerland was recognized).

And of course, the HRE ended when states formally left en masse for the Rhine Confederation in 1806. Legally, that wasnt possible, of course, but those were the facts on the ground recognized by everybdoy (at latest by the Congress of Vienna)

Basicly you are saying that the moment other people accept you left the empire, you left the empire.
And besides, as the Empire became increasingly irrelevant there simply was no real need to leave it. The Imperial border ran right through the Austrian and the Prussian domains, for example, and that didnt mean much...

You're right. You need a situation where the HRE still matters enough that you want to leave, but is not strong enough to enforce it. It more or less only happened on the irrelevant border areas of the empire noone really cared about. No emperor had ever really cared about the Netherlands (except probably Charles V) Italy (at least not anymore in the 16th century) or Switzerland, so they let them go.
 

Susano

Banned
Basicly you are saying that the moment other people accept you left the empire, you left the empire.
Well, yes, but if you want to generalise it to that extent you could say that about just anything in diplomacy and law! :p

You're right. You need a situation where the HRE still matters enough that you want to leave, but is not strong enough to enforce it. It more or less only happened on the irrelevant border areas of the empire noone really cared about. No emperor had ever really cared about the Netherlands (except probably Charles V) Italy (at least not anymore in the 16th century) or Switzerland, so they let them go.

Hm. Now, if the aformentioned Imperial Reforms actually go somewhere - the Imperial Circles have a meaning, Imperial Diet and Imperial Court are actually strong and have authority, etc., then some states might object to becoming "Circlefied" and hence put under increasing Impeiral control. Say, for example, that it works so well in Germany that the Empire also begins to draw up Circles for Switzerland and Italy... and then the Reformation strikes, so that while the Empire has meaning, it is at least momentarily too weak and internally divided to go against every rebellion.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Well, yes, but if you want to generalise it to that extent you could say that about just anything in diplomacy and law! :p



Hm. Now, if the aformentioned Imperial Reforms actually go somewhere - the Imperial Circles have a meaning, Imperial Diet and Imperial Court are actually strong and have authority, etc., then some states might object to becoming "Circlefied" and hence put under increasing Impeiral control. Say, for example, that it works so well in Germany that the Empire also begins to draw up Circles for Switzerland and Italy... and then the Reformation strikes, so that while the Empire has meaning, it is at least momentarily too weak and internally divided to go against every rebellion.

But the circle seem to have worked well in South Germany, but the farther north you got the less meaning they had. In Swabia as a example the circle was active used to organise co-operation between the Princes, While Nieder- and Obersachsens circles lost completely meaning after the 30YW. It seem the smaller the local princely domains were the greater meaning the circles kept. It was only with Franz Joseph had his focus on development of Habsburg land rather trying to keep power in the Empire that the circles lost their last meaning as imperial "provinces".
 
Well, yes, but if you want to generalise it to that extent you could say that about just anything in diplomacy and law! :p
Ok, that's true. But what I meant was that there was no standard procedure of leaving the empire, like fill in the forms and hand them over to the emperor in triplet, go to the pope ask for his consent and get at least 5 nations to recognise you among which at least England or France (while non-Catholic nations only count for half).
 

Susano

Banned
But the circle seem to have worked well in South Germany, but the farther north you got the less meaning they had. In Swabia as a example the circle was active used to organise co-operation between the Princes, While Nieder- and Obersachsens circles lost completely meaning after the 30YW. It seem the smaller the local princely domains were the greater meaning the circles kept. It was only with Franz Joseph had his focus on development of Habsburg land rather trying to keep power in the Empire that the circles lost their last meaning as imperial "provinces".

Well, the Swabian and the Franconian Circle worked. And that was it, basically, I would say. Of course the smaller domains also had an interest in it working: A functioning Empire meant protection from their neighbours for them, and indeed, when the Empire was dissolved there was a feeding frenzy IOTL, of course... but the small domains are, well, small, so their support either way would not mean much. If the North German circles are made more significant, or if the system gets expanded southwards, then most likely there will be resistance.

Pompejus said:
But what I meant was that there was no standard procedure of leaving the empire, like fill in the forms and hand them over to the emperor in triplet, go to the pope ask for his consent and get at least 5 nations to recognise you among which at least England or France (while non-Catholic nations only count for half).
Well, a combination of the first and the third option was how Prussia got its royal crown :D And catholic clerics did offer the second way, if Frederick I would convert.

But yes, youre right. But that is because at the most basic level secession was illegal, so any secession would by default require inattention or defeat...
 
the Empire basically writing off the territories (Italy was not included in teh late 15th/early 16th century Imperial reforms, and for example not divdied into Imperial Circles like Germany, despite theoretically still belonging to the Empire - techncially and de facto that was Italy being written off)

No doubt imperial control of Italy was minimal. Nevertheless, the dukes of Savoy prided themselves as "Imperial Vicars" at least until the Thirty Years War, and also tried to fulfill this role when dealing with their neighbors. Oh, you mean they should also have acted as such towards the Emperor? Hm ...

Anyway, the imperial claim to Italy was still strong enough in the 1620s that the Emperor could not easily stay out of the Mantuan mayhem without losing face ...


Or of course, by external imposition of it (Westphalian Treaty, where the HRE theoretically lost the Northern Netherlands and Italy, and the loss of Switzerland was recognized).

Didn't the Westphalian Treaty also recognize Dutch independence explicitly?



Well, the Swabian and the Franconian Circle worked. And that was it, basically, I would say.

The Swabian Circle failed when Max of Bavaria took the city of Donauwörth (1607-ish) and nobody hindered him.

The Upper Saxon Circle at least worked in the sense as it contributed to John George of Saxony changing sides to Sweden in 1631: Tilly's violent pass of Thuringia outraged him, among others, because being responsible for this Circle. But then, of course, bonds with his distant kin among the princes there might have had the same effect, despite all rivalry.

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Funny question: How come that the litteral translation "Imperial Circle" is used in English?
To me it sounds rather clumsy; I would think "Imperial District" were a much better translation.
 

Susano

Banned
No doubt imperial control of Italy was minimal. Nevertheless, the dukes of Savoy prided themselves as "Imperial Vicars" at least until the Thirty Years War, and also tried to fulfill this role when dealing with their neighbors. Oh, you mean they should also have acted as such towards the Emperor? Hm ...
Well, Savoy proper (without Piedmont) remained an Imperial exclave at Westphalia. That changed at some war or other (I imagine), but I have no idea which...

Anyway, the imperial claim to Italy was still strong enough in the 1620s that the Emperor could not easily stay out of the Mantuan mayhem without losing face ...
Hm, true, thats a good point.

Didn't the Westphalian Treaty also recognize Dutch independence explicitly?
Yes. What I meant with theoretically was Italy - that is, theoretically lost at Wetsphalia, de facto largely lost already before.


The Swabian Circle failed when Max of Bavaria took the city of Donauwörth (1607-ish) and nobody hindered him.
Well, but at least it continued to have a working army structure etc.

Funny question: How come that the litteral translation "Imperial Circle" is used in English?
To me it sounds rather clumsy; I would think "Imperial District" were a much better translation.
Because district is an incredibly broad word. It could mean anything, really.
 
Perhaps we should also consider the time the original poster had in mind, that is the time of the Lombard league ...


And that makes a lot of a difference, as in the High Middle Ages, there were appreciable hazzles within Italian cities of supporters and adveraries of Imperial Authority. Later on, that was rather an academic question ...



One possible de-facto secession is already bordering a clich'e: The Hanseatic League.

Perhaps, in its time, the Swabian League to a larger extent than Switzerland.

And back in the days of the Hohenstaufens, I see a (faint) possibility of a Southern-German-Northern-Italian Empire under Barbarossa's kin, with a largely autonomous Welfish, or Welfish-Ascanian North ...
 
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