Starting the USA Better prepared for WWII.

...
Both the British and Americans need to throw serious cold water on strategic bombing. Again, serious doctrine fight on both sides of the Atlantic. Better bombers only make it worse in my opinion. Bombers consume workers, crew, aluminum, steel, engines and money well in excess to their value. NEITHER SIDE can hit the broad side of a barn with technology available in the next several decades. The need for large numbers of aircraft (even if they adopt a more rational doctrine) results in numerous trans-Atlantic problems. Need puts a lot of trash in production, but the primary limiting factor on both sides of the Atlantic is engines.

A lot of points are raised here, I'll comment on some.

US can spend working force, crew, aluminium, steel, engines, fuel and whatnot to make strategic bombing far better than other belligerents. Strategic bombers, if one can escort the bombers (or can make them otherwise less vulnerable, like flying in night), are a great thing for opening the second front in a most expedient manner. Germany can opt to ignore bombers and hope they don't hit something, or can opt to defend against them. The last option was pursued, and Allied escort fighters can make a short work of the LW defenders provide there is meaningful escort force in the 1st place, already by early 1943 this time around.
Strategic bombers can overfly Atalntic, so there is less of trans-Atlantic problems. Allied engine production dwarfed Axis engine production to a 'not funny anymore' level by 1942.
Luftwaffe can't fight on all three fronts in the same time, Allies can.

From a technology aspect, solve the HORSEPOWER-TO-WEIGHT (HTW) problem everyone faces. That will shorten the war, but requires a serious infusion of money a lot earlier. I love the discussions about "get the XXX wonder fighter into production in 194x". Powered with what? The Merlin engine (not the 1940 version) solves the high altitude interceptor problem, but not the ground attack fighter problem.

Merlin engine of 1940 (Merlin XX) certainly solves both high altitude and low altitude problems. Problem with Merlin XX was not related to it's abilities, but by two-three things. Like, the Hurricane being out-performed by Bf 109E by a wide margin, necessitating that Mk.XX is installed in the Hurricane to cancel out the performance gap; or, not having enough of Hercules engines so the Beaufighter gets the Mk.XX; or, to cure the Defiant's performance problems. All of that combined meant there was not enough of Mk.XX for the superb Spitfire III (400 mph unarmed; a bit less with guns), so it was not produced.
A good power-to-weight ratio can solve a lot, but it is not be all end all when it is about ww2 aircraft. We know that Spitfire, Typhoon, Fw 190, Zero or Bf 109 have had superior P/W ratio than P-51B/D or P-47D, yet the later two were superior with regards to fly out 350-700 miles away, beat the best enemy can throw against them and return to base. The Fw 190D-9 have had inferior P/W ratio than Fw 190A-9, yet the D-9 was a better performer all-around.
Then we have a question of supercharging used - a decent 2-stage supercharger will beat the best 1-stage supercharger at high altitude. Aerodynamics and favorable fuel factor (weight of fuel as a percentage of total aircraft weight) are also very important.

HTW (weight and size being a trade-off) is also the limiting factor on the tank (and truck) side of the equation. The push to build quantity rapidly creates a lot of mistakes. So, my two cents on the Sherman tank - what should one switch to in late 1941 when you are lining up production for 1942? One needs a lot of post-combat understanding to build a better tank in 1942. Remember, at this time the British are "up-gunning" to the 6pdr and German tanks with a short-barreled 75 are appearing in the desert.

Very few people, at least on this board, will say that Sherman was a bad tank. With that said, a lot of improvements should've been done earlier.
Purpose of a tank's gun is not to enter p!ssing contest with enemy or allied guns, but to defeat the most likely targets. So the capabilities of the US gun need to 1st be weighted against the enemy armor protection at a combat distance, and 2nd to offer a 'cushion' against the perceived & likely improvement of enemy armor protection - not to match the AP performance of the enemy gun (this, and performance of the enemy AT gun, is why the own armor protection is for).
It does not require Guderian reincarnate to anticipate that enemy will improve armor protection of it's tanks as war progresses; a quick glance on armor of British tanks of 1941-42 will easily show that AP performance of the US 75mm will be out-dated within a reasonable time when Germans improve their armor to the British levels.
After all, US were having the M10 and M18 tank destroyers, armed with a much better anti-armor gun, in pipeline by 1942 - someone was reading the tea leaves right.

Improved engines need an incentive (i.e., money) as well as knowledge that 1,000hp is inadequate for combat aircraft. Perhaps prize money for air races? Tractor pulls? Probably crazy, but how does one get to the need for a 2,000hp radial engine?

Very easy, be it about a 2000 HP radial or a liquid-cooled engine. Per requirments laid down in late 1930s, people wanted to go fast (400+ mph; Typhoon was sold to the AM partially since Hawker stated it can go 460 mph), to have much bigger firepower than before (12 LMGs, or 8 HMGs, or 4 cannons, or whatever the combination was), to have reasonable lift and altitude capabilities (= big wing, a lot of HP bot down low and at altitude); some countries needed to cover a lot of real estate (= big fuel tank) - all of that in a single fighter. Lockheed went with 2x1000 HP for the XP-38, Bristol went with 2 x 1400 HP for Beaufighter (sold as 370 mph fighter, a figure that was never achieved), Willy went with 2x1100 HP with Bf 110C, Whirlwind did 1770 HP total on 87 oct, or ~2000 HP on 100 oct.
Further, if your enemies or allies have a 1500+- HP engine in the works, it might be prudent to start a 2000 HP engine design.
Going with a single engine does (and still did) offer possibility of meeting all of the requests on lower price tag (both for airframe and powerplant), a bit lower fuel consumed per mile covered, and much easier pilot training.

1000 HP can be adequate for combat aircraft, with several caveats - like it needs to be in 1939-41 at most, and omething needs to be forgotten (like heavy firepower, or big fuel capacity, or protection; perhaps opt for not carrying a radio, or carry the basic radio; or a combination of those). Or one can make a twin-engined aircraft, that comes again with it's own string of shortcomings and benefits.

My prior research into the subject of engines for tanks indicates that ~750hp is the maximum for a naturally aspirated (no ECM) diesel that will fit in an armored vehicle. Obviously there are diesels that fit in submarines and locomotives that are more powerful. This is a massive achievement for the time. Does anyone even believe it is feasible? PS, don't forget the "bridge problem" - 40t is a serious challenge for bridges in Europe (most everywhere for that matter). It is also an issue for assault bridging and ferry operations of the OTL variety.

A 500-600 Hp engine in a 35-40 ton tank is more than enough for ww2 needs.[/QUOTE]
 
There was video on Youtube that showed FDR sometime in the late 1930s dedicating I think it was the Columbia river dams or possibly some stage of the TVA project. If somebody could locate that particular video that would be fine. Part of the dedication speech contains remarks where FDR contrasted the U.S. using its national budget for strengthening its domestic, industrial and economic infrastructure as compared to other nations spending theirs on an arms build up. It seems to me the Americans had already prepared adequately for WW2. What followed was the details. Important details yes but the outcome of WW2 had already been determined.
 
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Improved engines need an incentive (i.e., money) as well as knowledge that 1,000hp is inadequate for combat aircraft. Perhaps prize money for air races? Tractor pulls? Probably crazy, but how does one get to the need for a 2,000hp radial engine?

You brought up many interesting points in your post. And I thought I'd try to answer this interesting question. The U.S. civil aviation market could have helped fund the development of more powerful engines. In fact in OTL they actually did to a certain degree. Starting in 1935 both Pratt & Whitney and Wright were developing radial engines that were capable of producing 2000HP and more with a little work. In 1937 Curtiss had begun designing a pressurized twin engine airliner that required nearly 2000HP engines. Other companies had other designs.

From the Wikipedia article on the Curtiss C-46,
"The prototype for what would become the C-46, the Curtiss CW-20, was designed in 1937 by George A. Page Jr., the chief aircraft designer at Curtiss-Wright.[4] The CW-20 was a private venture intended to compete with the four-engined Douglas DC-4 and Boeing Stratoliner by the introduction of a new standard in pressurized airliners.[5] The CW-20 had a patented fuselage conventionally referred to as a "figure-eight" (or "double-bubble") which enabled it to better withstand the pressure differential at high altitudes.[6] This was done by having the sides of the fuselage creased at the level of the floor that not only separated the two portions but shared in the stress of each, rather than just supporting itself. The main spar of the wing could pass through the bottom section which was mainly intended for cargo without intruding on the passenger upper compartment.[6] A decision to utilize a twin-engine design instead of a four-engine configuration was considered viable if sufficiently powerful engines were available, allowing for lower operating costs and a less complex structure.[7] "
 
US can spend working force, crew, aluminium, steel, engines, fuel and whatnot to make strategic bombing far better than other belligerents.
There can be no denying air power in general is a vital force multiplier, particularly against a foe that has invested in it heavily themselves.

There is a heck of a lot more question about the value of strategic air power. Again, to deny it has any worth whatsoever is to take a ridiculously extreme position--but to pretend it can be a war-winning arm of the military, which was the thesis of interwar advocates of "Victory through air power," is to take an opposite and ridiculous extreme.

One simply cannot surrender to bombs, but all the major gurus of interwar advocacy suggested that victory would be achieved by a mechanism that simply never works, and can't come close to working.

Now there is no question that bombing does disrupt enemy capabilities, to a measurable degree, and that attempting defense against this threat does tie down more of what the enemy has left.

In fact for instance by most metrics, the Great War attempt at terror bombing via Zeppelins (and technically, some Schütte-Lanz models of rigid airship as well) waged against Britain was a pathetic failure, with bombing attacks going astray by entire regions, often bombing open countryside in the impression that some city or other was being bombed, in pathetic tonnages versus WWII. But one thing it did achieve--a substantial diversion of mobilization of force from the active fronts to air defense over Britain, and that was a measurable accomplishment of the attempt.

Whether the magnitude of the diversion of Allied resources compared to the cost of the Central Power effort is another question of course.

We are left then with objective, material impediments bombing accomplishes, and the imposition of an air defense cost, as real factors to consider.

These are the only gains we can reasonably claim are useful combat effects, to set against the cost of sustaining such attacks, in estimating cost-effectiveness.

Whereas the decision was made, before the war, both in Britain and the USA, to bet heavily on strategic bombing as a war winner, before the realistic data on how well it actually worked was in, and with a huge emphasis on platitudes that proved quite far from reality:
1) that people would in fact in effect surrender to bombing by demoralization;
2) that "the bomber will get through," which first led to decisions nerfing the effectiveness of interceptors lest the thesis on which a service claimed the status of independent command be undermined, followed by massive losses as it was shown that the bomber quite often would not get through, leading to massive investments to cover the sunk cost of a big bet on terror bombing such as belatedly providing escort fighter cover and attempting to armor and heavily arm the bombers themselves;
3) that "precision bombing" could accomplish such objectives as sinking warships, or as the failure of the terror bombing/general derangement bombing sank in, that vital works and resources and installations like rail junctures, POL distribution and stocks, etc could be efficiently targeted.

1 is pretty much false. 2 and 3 have some merit, but again, to be realistic in cost/benefit estimates we have to be realistic about the complete costs and about the limits of effectiveness. Not only were defended targets not nearly as easy to hit as bombing advocates asserted, the derangement caused by successfully hitting them with bombs it was feasible to deliver was generally a lot less than assumed. Again and again, facilities that took serious bomb damage were up and running again quite quickly.

The costs involved are huge, and go far beyond just making the airframes or even the opportunity cost of committing men to be pilots, aircrew and mechanics. To achieve the sort of performance desired, it was necessary to make aircraft that made heavy demands in terms of concrete reinforced runways; the cost of the concrete construction alone was a really significant cost factor in WWII.

Indeed the USA had resources to burn versus other powers; some could afford more men, but none could afford more extravagant use of material resources.

The point here being, the commitment to Victory Through Air Power was such an extravagant use.

Now air power has many aspects to be sure. Good fighter-interceptors of one phase of the war could generally be repurposed as tactical attack planes when they were no longer suitable as air superiority fighters, or for other vital auxiliary uses, such as reconnaissance (big bombers also could excel in that secondary role, particularly during the Cold War, or over stretches of ocean). The most vital force multiplier of air power is that of supporting land and sea surface defenses and attacks; if one can do this under cover of air superiority over the battlefield for one's own side, the "multiplication" of one's own side's effectiveness, and inversely the decimation of the other side's effectiveness, are both large factors. In the event the two air forces are hotly engaged with fluctuating success, the outcome is similarly fluctuating on the surface (and ASW) fields. What is certain is that if either side concedes air superiority to the other, they fight at a severe disadvantage.

To the extent that deep penetrating air strikes have effect, this is also true of strategic bombing, but if there is no presence of the enemy on the ground, even being wide open to air strikes one cannot effectively fend off is a lot less devastating than if that enemy could press the opportunities such bombing would open up and seize ground, follow through on neutralizing assets, and take the surrender of forces and regions.
Strategic bombers, if one can escort the bombers (or can make them otherwise less vulnerable, like flying in night), are a great thing for opening the second front in a most expedient manner.
Even with quite effective long range fighter escort, Allied (read, US and British, mostly, the Soviets did not consistently pursue long range strategic bombing) attrition rates on bomber strikes remained quite high. I am very skeptical it was generally the most cost effective use of Western Allied overall airpower potential.

As a "second front" it is close to useless. Consider for instance the effect of quite a deep British penetration into German airspace to wreck Von Braun's V2 development operations at Peenemünde; the upshot was to relocate the works into death-camp worked new sites, armored and buried in mine shafts, in the general region of "Camp Dora," itself a broad complex of slave camps. (Von Braun's workers included quite skilled draftsmen, employed as such--who were not even fed). Now one can high-five oneself that this cost the regime serious diversions of resources, since extra effort had to go into digging up the suitably sheltered sites, equipping them, and no doubt if Peenemünde had been left alone, and its approaches, it would have been somewhat cheaper for them to distribute the rockets as well. But the question is, is this really tantamount to opening a "second front?" Clearly not--nor is it cost-effective if one factors in RAF losses and the high cost of setting up the capabilities of Bomber Command in the first place. Calling this a "second front" is just wartime propaganda, not a serious substitute for one.
Germany can opt to ignore bombers and hope they don't hit something, or can opt to defend against them. The last option was pursued, and Allied escort fighters can make a short work of the LW defenders provide there is meaningful escort force in the 1st place, already by early 1943 this time around.
But the Germans were able to impose such costs on the Allies too, without investing in bombers of the B-17, -24, 29 types or the heavy types the RAF invested in (which were capable of bigger bomb loads but had to fly at lower altitudes, and therefore remained night bombers). The types they did focus on were more suited to front line attack purposes, and their most egregious (but not massively invested in) errors related to trying to make big bombers function like the smaller attack plane types.

The Allies won because they were huger, ultimately. The USSR had massive strategic depth and manpower, and crucial war production industries were located far behind the borders, and of course access to US and British aid; Britain had (somewhat vulnerable) access to world resources and the USA between domestic productivity and plenty of credit to cover the cost of obtaining materials not so suitable to US domestic production, cemented this.

Obviously we have to use judgement to decide which aspects of Allied peculiarities of approach were force multipliers and which were unfortunate wastes. Most of this thread is devoted to gun porn and unreasonable foresight, whereas I think that there was a certain advantage to be had, for powers that had staying power, in being reluctant and late to the fight, in avoiding by and large sinking too much production potential in stuff and in training that would not be appropriate for the actual fight. One pays a price for this, of course, but I think it is a mistake to chide people for not planning with perfect foresight for the war that would evolve with desperate move and countermove, when the nations we are chiding first of all sought to avoid war at all, and only when the options of peace were foreclosed turned reluctantly to winning it. This reluctance definitely cost the Allies in the form of poor preparation, but aside from the technical advantages coming from late wartime developed models of this or that that were suited to actual combat needs, there was I think a serious moral advantage as well; the various mobilized peoples of the Allies knew why they were fighting and that they should persevere through difficulties to victory.

I think the story of UK-USA devotion to "victory through airpower" is a cautionary tale about how much worse it could have been if the Anglosphere had been pugnacious and gung ho to fight through the '30s; the specific devotion to a form of airpower that relied on false premises and was particularly inefficient has been covered by the general achievement of victory and transformed into a pernicious myth; it bit the USA in the ass a second time in the later '40s when the inflated notions of victory through nuclear air power undermined maintenance of more balanced forces, which left us pretty much flat footed in the early phase of the Korean War (and once again, a silver lining to the dark cloud of poor preparation took the form of lots of reserve potential to devise new front line combat designs, in aircraft in particular, to meet unforeseen and complacently neglected enemy capabilities in the matter of air combat).

The fact of global nuclear balance of terror is a fact we cannot leave out of reckoning, but the paradox of the inefficiency of this monstrously efficient mode of dealing mass destruction on a foe only highlights the basic fallacy of pretending to be able to achieve victory by mass destruction of the foe all by itself. The machinery of Cold War intercontinental nuclear strike capability, massive and expensive though it is, was in the later Cold War dwarfed by the cost and scale of mobilization of much less wholesale means of destruction...and again, even with the balance of terror holding us from using any nuclear capability anywhere, the fallacy of victory through devastating strikes from the air was demonstrated again in Vietnam, and again in Iraq. Only following through with balanced forces to actually invade and conquer territory can anything approximating victory be achieved, and then too it is a matter of having a sane aim to achieve.
 
There can be no denying air power in general is a vital force multiplier, particularly against a foe that has invested in it heavily themselves.

There is a heck of a lot more question about the value of strategic air power. Again, to deny it has any worth whatsoever is to take a ridiculously extreme position--but to pretend it can be a war-winning arm of the military, which was the thesis of interwar advocates of "Victory through air power," is to take an opposite and ridiculous extreme.

One simply cannot surrender to bombs, but all the major gurus of interwar advocacy suggested that victory would be achieved by a mechanism that simply never works, and can't come close to working.

Now there is no question that bombing does disrupt enemy capabilities, to a measurable degree, and that attempting defense against this threat does tie down more of what the enemy has left.

In fact for instance by most metrics, the Great War attempt at terror bombing via Zeppelins (and technically, some Schütte-Lanz models of rigid airship as well) waged against Britain was a pathetic failure, with bombing attacks going astray by entire regions, often bombing open countryside in the impression that some city or other was being bombed, in pathetic tonnages versus WWII. But one thing it did achieve--a substantial diversion of mobilization of force from the active fronts to air defense over Britain, and that was a measurable accomplishment of the attempt.

Whether the magnitude of the diversion of Allied resources compared to the cost of the Central Power effort is another question of course.

We are left then with objective, material impediments bombing accomplishes, and the imposition of an air defense cost, as real factors to consider.

These are the only gains we can reasonably claim are useful combat effects, to set against the cost of sustaining such attacks, in estimating cost-effectiveness.

Whereas the decision was made, before the war, both in Britain and the USA, to bet heavily on strategic bombing as a war winner, before the realistic data on how well it actually worked was in, and with a huge emphasis on platitudes that proved quite far from reality:
1) that people would in fact in effect surrender to bombing by demoralization;
2) that "the bomber will get through," which first led to decisions nerfing the effectiveness of interceptors lest the thesis on which a service claimed the status of independent command be undermined, followed by massive losses as it was shown that the bomber quite often would not get through, leading to massive investments to cover the sunk cost of a big bet on terror bombing such as belatedly providing escort fighter cover and attempting to armor and heavily arm the bombers themselves;
3) that "precision bombing" could accomplish such objectives as sinking warships, or as the failure of the terror bombing/general derangement bombing sank in, that vital works and resources and installations like rail junctures, POL distribution and stocks, etc could be efficiently targeted.

1 is pretty much false. 2 and 3 have some merit, but again, to be realistic in cost/benefit estimates we have to be realistic about the complete costs and about the limits of effectiveness. Not only were defended targets not nearly as easy to hit as bombing advocates asserted, the derangement caused by successfully hitting them with bombs it was feasible to deliver was generally a lot less than assumed. Again and again, facilities that took serious bomb damage were up and running again quite quickly.

The costs involved are huge, and go far beyond just making the airframes or even the opportunity cost of committing men to be pilots, aircrew and mechanics. To achieve the sort of performance desired, it was necessary to make aircraft that made heavy demands in terms of concrete reinforced runways; the cost of the concrete construction alone was a really significant cost factor in WWII.

Indeed the USA had resources to burn versus other powers; some could afford more men, but none could afford more extravagant use of material resources.

The point here being, the commitment to Victory Through Air Power was such an extravagant use.

Now air power has many aspects to be sure. Good fighter-interceptors of one phase of the war could generally be repurposed as tactical attack planes when they were no longer suitable as air superiority fighters, or for other vital auxiliary uses, such as reconnaissance (big bombers also could excel in that secondary role, particularly during the Cold War, or over stretches of ocean). The most vital force multiplier of air power is that of supporting land and sea surface defenses and attacks; if one can do this under cover of air superiority over the battlefield for one's own side, the "multiplication" of one's own side's effectiveness, and inversely the decimation of the other side's effectiveness, are both large factors. In the event the two air forces are hotly engaged with fluctuating success, the outcome is similarly fluctuating on the surface (and ASW) fields. What is certain is that if either side concedes air superiority to the other, they fight at a severe disadvantage.

To the extent that deep penetrating air strikes have effect, this is also true of strategic bombing, but if there is no presence of the enemy on the ground, even being wide open to air strikes one cannot effectively fend off is a lot less devastating than if that enemy could press the opportunities such bombing would open up and seize ground, follow through on neutralizing assets, and take the surrender of forces and regions.

Even with quite effective long range fighter escort, Allied (read, US and British, mostly, the Soviets did not consistently pursue long range strategic bombing) attrition rates on bomber strikes remained quite high. I am very skeptical it was generally the most cost effective use of Western Allied overall airpower potential.

As a "second front" it is close to useless. Consider for instance the effect of quite a deep British penetration into German airspace to wreck Von Braun's V2 development operations at Peenemünde; the upshot was to relocate the works into death-camp worked new sites, armored and buried in mine shafts, in the general region of "Camp Dora," itself a broad complex of slave camps. (Von Braun's workers included quite skilled draftsmen, employed as such--who were not even fed). Now one can high-five oneself that this cost the regime serious diversions of resources, since extra effort had to go into digging up the suitably sheltered sites, equipping them, and no doubt if Peenemünde had been left alone, and its approaches, it would have been somewhat cheaper for them to distribute the rockets as well. But the question is, is this really tantamount to opening a "second front?" Clearly not--nor is it cost-effective if one factors in RAF losses and the high cost of setting up the capabilities of Bomber Command in the first place. Calling this a "second front" is just wartime propaganda, not a serious substitute for one.

But the Germans were able to impose such costs on the Allies too, without investing in bombers of the B-17, -24, 29 types or the heavy types the RAF invested in (which were capable of bigger bomb loads but had to fly at lower altitudes, and therefore remained night bombers). The types they did focus on were more suited to front line attack purposes, and their most egregious (but not massively invested in) errors related to trying to make big bombers function like the smaller attack plane types.

The Allies won because they were huger, ultimately. The USSR had massive strategic depth and manpower, and crucial war production industries were located far behind the borders, and of course access to US and British aid; Britain had (somewhat vulnerable) access to world resources and the USA between domestic productivity and plenty of credit to cover the cost of obtaining materials not so suitable to US domestic production, cemented this.

Obviously we have to use judgement to decide which aspects of Allied peculiarities of approach were force multipliers and which were unfortunate wastes. Most of this thread is devoted to gun porn and unreasonable foresight, whereas I think that there was a certain advantage to be had, for powers that had staying power, in being reluctant and late to the fight, in avoiding by and large sinking too much production potential in stuff and in training that would not be appropriate for the actual fight. One pays a price for this, of course, but I think it is a mistake to chide people for not planning with perfect foresight for the war that would evolve with desperate move and countermove, when the nations we are chiding first of all sought to avoid war at all, and only when the options of peace were foreclosed turned reluctantly to winning it. This reluctance definitely cost the Allies in the form of poor preparation, but aside from the technical advantages coming from late wartime developed models of this or that that were suited to actual combat needs, there was I think a serious moral advantage as well; the various mobilized peoples of the Allies knew why they were fighting and that they should persevere through difficulties to victory.

I think the story of UK-USA devotion to "victory through airpower" is a cautionary tale about how much worse it could have been if the Anglosphere had been pugnacious and gung ho to fight through the '30s; the specific devotion to a form of airpower that relied on false premises and was particularly inefficient has been covered by the general achievement of victory and transformed into a pernicious myth; it bit the USA in the ass a second time in the later '40s when the inflated notions of victory through nuclear air power undermined maintenance of more balanced forces, which left us pretty much flat footed in the early phase of the Korean War (and once again, a silver lining to the dark cloud of poor preparation took the form of lots of reserve potential to devise new front line combat designs, in aircraft in particular, to meet unforeseen and complacently neglected enemy capabilities in the matter of air combat).

The fact of global nuclear balance of terror is a fact we cannot leave out of reckoning, but the paradox of the inefficiency of this monstrously efficient mode of dealing mass destruction on a foe only highlights the basic fallacy of pretending to be able to achieve victory by mass destruction of the foe all by itself. The machinery of Cold War intercontinental nuclear strike capability, massive and expensive though it is, was in the later Cold War dwarfed by the cost and scale of mobilization of much less wholesale means of destruction...and again, even with the balance of terror holding us from using any nuclear capability anywhere, the fallacy of victory through devastating strikes from the air was demonstrated again in Vietnam, and again in Iraq. Only following through with balanced forces to actually invade and conquer territory can anything approximating victory be achieved, and then too it is a matter of having a sane aim to achieve.

Citing the Germans being able to move rocket production as proof that the " Second Front" was just wartime propaganda seems iffy. If you alone consider the number of large, expensive, and absolutely vital DP anti aircraft guns ( 88mm to 128mm) the Germans were forced to devote to fighting the bomber campaign some value is blatantly apparent. Calbear earlier pointed out the Germans were forced to devote something along the lines of 10K AAA pieces in the 88mm to 128mm range to air defense. A few thousand more heavy AT guns or several times that in normal artillery on the Eastern front aren't going to change the war but they will slow down the Red Army and cause many more casualties. Then consider the number of shells the germans used from said AA guns. I believe on average it took something like over 5k heavy AAA shells to down one allied bomber. Without the bomber offensive the Germans can afford the resources for a lot more ground oriented munitions.
 
Citing the Germans being able to move rocket production as proof that the " Second Front" was just wartime propaganda seems iffy. If you alone consider the number of large, expensive, and absolutely vital DP anti aircraft guns ( 88mm to 128mm) the Germans were forced to devote to fighting the bomber campaign some value is blatantly apparent. Calbear earlier pointed out the Germans were forced to devote something along the lines of 10K AAA pieces in the 88mm to 128mm range to air defense. A few thousand more heavy AT guns or several times that in normal artillery on the Eastern front aren't going to change the war but they will slow down the Red Army and cause many more casualties. Then consider the number of shells the germans used from said AA guns. I believe on average it took something like over 5k heavy AAA shells to down one allied bomber. Without the bomber offensive the Germans can afford the resources for a lot more ground oriented munitions.
And then you have to factor in all the workers the Germans had to use to attempt to repair the damage and all the production and supplies lost due to said damage and the repairs to thereof
 
...
One simply cannot surrender to bombs, but all the major gurus of interwar advocacy suggested that victory would be achieved by a mechanism that simply never works, and can't come close to working.

You have me scratching my head in the vain effort to find just where I've suggested that someone surrender to bombs.

Now there is no question that bombing does disrupt enemy capabilities, to a measurable degree, and that attempting defense against this threat does tie down more of what the enemy has left.

Thank you.


1) that people would in fact in effect surrender to bombing by demoralization;
2) that "the bomber will get through," which first led to decisions nerfing the effectiveness of interceptors lest the thesis on which a service claimed the status of independent command be undermined, followed by massive losses as it was shown that the bomber quite often would not get through, leading to massive investments to cover the sunk cost of a big bet on terror bombing such as belatedly providing escort fighter cover and attempting to armor and heavily arm the bombers themselves;
3) that "precision bombing" could accomplish such objectives as sinking warships, or as the failure of the terror bombing/general derangement bombing sank in, that vital works and resources and installations like rail junctures, POL distribution and stocks, etc could be efficiently targeted.

Nobody was nerfing the effectiveness of interceptors so the 'bomber will get through' matra succeeds. Americans were trying to put in the air epensive 2-engined fighters armed with either 2 x37mm cannons aloft, or the ones armed with a 37mm cannon and multiple guns. British were jumping from 2 to 4, then to 8, and then to 12 LMGs or 4 cannons in order to improve the chances of killing the enemy bomber. Germans and French were trying to install at least one cannon in their fighters, ditto for Soviets.
Note that I don't suggest anywhere that US bombers are supposed to get through just by themselves, so again you have me scratching my head about that.

1 is pretty much false. 2 and 3 have some merit, but again, to be realistic in cost/benefit estimates we have to be realistic about the complete costs and about the limits of effectiveness. Not only were defended targets not nearly as easy to hit as bombing advocates asserted, the derangement caused by successfully hitting them with bombs it was feasible to deliver was generally a lot less than assumed. Again and again, facilities that took serious bomb damage were up and running again quite quickly.

It is not a question how the startegis bombers can be effective in their job. It is a question of feasibility of US military to project power against a distant enemy in the time the US ground forces can't do it. In early 1943, the American bombers flying over Germany and escorted in 1943 are a far tougher threat to Axis war effort than US tanks and infantry in North Africa.

The costs involved are huge, and go far beyond just making the airframes or even the opportunity cost of committing men to be pilots, aircrew and mechanics. To achieve the sort of performance desired, it was necessary to make aircraft that made heavy demands in terms of concrete reinforced runways; the cost of the concrete construction alone was a really significant cost factor in WWII.

Indeed the USA had resources to burn versus other powers; some could afford more men, but none could afford more extravagant use of material resources.

There we go - everyone tries to fight with it's strong suit. American strong suit was it's potent industry, technology, and money. Far better to burn concrete, steel, aluminium and fuel than to burn tens of thousands of infantrymen.

The point here being, the commitment to Victory Through Air Power was such an extravagant use.

I've suggested escorted bombers. That movie did not.

Now air power has many aspects to be sure. Good fighter-interceptors of one phase of the war could generally be repurposed as tactical attack planes when they were no longer suitable as air superiority fighters, or for other vital auxiliary uses, such as reconnaissance (big bombers also could excel in that secondary role, particularly during the Cold War, or over stretches of ocean). The most vital force multiplier of air power is that of supporting land and sea surface defenses and attacks; if one can do this under cover of air superiority over the battlefield for one's own side, the "multiplication" of one's own side's effectiveness, and inversely the decimation of the other side's effectiveness, are both large factors. In the event the two air forces are hotly engaged with fluctuating success, the outcome is similarly fluctuating on the surface (and ASW) fields. What is certain is that if either side concedes air superiority to the other, they fight at a severe disadvantage.

Thank you.

To the extent that deep penetrating air strikes have effect, this is also true of strategic bombing, but if there is no presence of the enemy on the ground, even being wide open to air strikes one cannot effectively fend off is a lot less devastating than if that enemy could press the opportunities such bombing would open up and seize ground, follow through on neutralizing assets, and take the surrender of forces and regions.

Oh, boy. Who suggested that US does not invest in the ground forces?

Even with quite effective long range fighter escort, Allied (read, US and British, mostly, the Soviets did not consistently pursue long range strategic bombing) attrition rates on bomber strikes remained quite high. I am very skeptical it was generally the most cost effective use of Western Allied overall airpower potential.

It is not just about the improvemnt of bombers safety.
It is about the (good) escorts chance to kill enemy fighters, so they can't interfere with the tactical force that was unleashed on them in 1944 (talking here about the ETO). The loss rates of 8th AF were about 20% between May and October of 1943, than it was down to 12.65 due to the curtailing of bomber ops due to the Schweinfurt catastrophe, then again went to 20+% until April of 1944. However, by May the losses went down to 17.7%, and further down to approx. 13% for the next 3 months. The net result of killing of LW fighter force above NW Europe, mostly by escorts, meant that Luftwaffe could not mount any meaningful attack in France once Allies invaded, and 8th AF bombers have had on disposal more than 2000 crews for their 2000+ bomber force in Summer of 1944, a far cry from 600-650 in Summer of 1943.
LW losses between Sept 1943 and Oct 1943.
Note the devastation that LW suffered in the 'West'.

As a "second front" it is close to useless. Consider for instance the effect of quite a deep British penetration into German airspace to wreck Von Braun's V2 development operations at Peenemünde; the upshot was to relocate the works into death-camp worked new sites, armored and buried in mine shafts, in the general region of "Camp Dora," itself a broad complex of slave camps. (Von Braun's workers included quite skilled draftsmen, employed as such--who were not even fed). Now one can high-five oneself that this cost the regime serious diversions of resources, since extra effort had to go into digging up the suitably sheltered sites, equipping them, and no doubt if Peenemünde had been left alone, and its approaches, it would have been somewhat cheaper for them to distribute the rockets as well. But the question is, is this really tantamount to opening a "second front?" Clearly not--nor is it cost-effective if one factors in RAF losses and the high cost of setting up the capabilities of Bomber Command in the first place. Calling this a "second front" is just wartime propaganda, not a serious substitute for one.

Germans deployed almost 10 000 (ten thousand) of Flak guns of calibrre 75mm and bigger by early 1944 between Pyrenees and Oder, plus thousands of lighter Flak; Flak part of air defense was manned by 500 000 men. Many times a quarter of German ammo production was for the needs of Flak arm. It took 4000 of heavy shells fired to kill a (British, mostly) aircraft in 1942, that crept to 16000 (16 thousand) by 1944 due to many factors (barrel wear, Allied counter-measures, false notion that kids and PoW make good Flak crews). Basically - the cost of ammo was greater than cost of Allied aircraft. People can check Westermann's doctroral thesis for exact numbers.
So let's cancel the strategic bombing so Germans can ship the guns and ammo to East?
RAF BC lost less men in the whole war than British army lost in two major battles in ww1.
There is no doubt that it took time and effort for CBO to get it's act together, from target choice on. But just cancelling it, that benefits far more Germany than Allied war effort.

But the Germans were able to impose such costs on the Allies too, without investing in bombers of the B-17, -24, 29 types or the heavy types the RAF invested in (which were capable of bigger bomb loads but had to fly at lower altitudes, and therefore remained night bombers). The types they did focus on were more suited to front line attack purposes, and their most egregious (but not massively invested in) errors related to trying to make big bombers function like the smaller attack plane types.

British bombers didn't became or remained night bombers because they could not fly high, they did so since the current thinking in the RAF had no place for escort fighter so the only way to keep bombers reasonably safe was to fly at night.
The B-29 carried more than any British bomber, BTW.
 
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Yes, however unless I'm misreading marathags' post I think he's suggesting a Gatling type 20 MM similar to the Vulcan as used in CIWS type installation. But It's not clear to me if that's what was meant. Would a multibarrel cannon have been possible in those days? Working at about 100 rounds a second maybe the ammunition feed would have been the major stumbling block.
Would some redundant electrical drive be a workable option, or too much risk of service interruption during battle?
I'd think so. After all, the powered mounts required electricity to operate them. Naturally each gun would have its own circuit. It's interesting idea. Instead of long rows of 20MM Oerlikons lining most of the length of both sides of the flight deck howabout 4 or 5 CIWS radar and/or optically sighted Vulcans? They could be fitted to other ships too. The Gatling gun concept had existed 80 years before the War. If you really want to throw out a lot of rounds per gun station this is one possible way.
It was certainly possible, though rare. Gatling built an electric gun in 1903 which got 1,500 rpm, and the M61 Vulcan was designed after engineers took an old 1903 Gatling from a museum and got it to fire 5,000 rpm by adding an electric motor. Clean-sheet designs were mainly the Fokker-Leimberger and Slostin machine guns.

However, the Phalanx isn't the best system available, since it uses a drum magazine which does require reloading. The better option would be the M163 or M167 VADS, which use a belt feed though they only fire at 3,000 rpm. At that rate of fire each M61 is equal to about 6 Oerlikons at cyclic rate (450 rpm), and equal to about 10 Oerlikons at their practical rate (250-320 rpm). If a belt feed is used on the full 6,000 rpm of a Phalanx, it would be the equal of about 20 Oerlikons at their practical rate. The AK-630 uses a belt feed and fires at about 4,000-5,000 rpm, making it about the equal of 15 Oerlikons. If the gun is gas-operated like the Soviet designs, it would be lighter, spin up faster, and not require external power.

In addition to doctrine changes, the early war allied problems are in part related to the whole concept of a run-up with time to "mobilize" before fighting. While this worked (somewhat) in WWI, it did not work at all in WWII for any allied nation. When I speak of "mobilization" I am referring to the centuries old practice of having a small peacetime Army and then quickly fill divisions with reservists and draftees who have a minimum of training (as well as outdated equipment). This creates a multitude of problems and was clearly obsolete (see Battle of France).
If mobilization didn't work, then nothing would. Mobilization and reserves were a response to the simple fact that no nation could afford a multi-million-man standing army in peacetime. Historically, the concept worked- the European countries with a full-size veteran professional army(the "Cabinet wars" period) were defeated by the massive army Revolutionary France built with the concept of levée en masse- which was much larger than any permanent professional European army. Later, France's professional army was defeated by the Prussian Army in 1870 which used a huge trained reserve to increase its size beyond what the French could manage. That Prussian system was then the basis of the mobilization system in most European armies from that point onwards. Any country that tried to maintain a full-sized professional army in peacetime was outnumbered and usually defeated by countries using mobilization, or strained to the limit by even small wars (this happened a lot to Britain).

That being said, there are a few technological methods to possibly reduce training time and requirements (despite training primarily being a personal hands-on task). For example, my hypothetical ideal WWII fighter has a different form/layout of instrumentation, in the hope that it is easier to read and learn, so that it might shave off training time (at the cost of being more expensive to build).
Want to help the grunt? Improve his web gear and lighten his frigging load!
I thought of a lot of ways to do this, but eventually realized it wouldn't matter- no matter how much the load was lightened troops would just carry more ammunition and other stuff until they were at their physical limits. That mindset defeats any amount of technology to lighten the load. After some thinking, I found a way of looking at soldier loads that changed that mindset (at least for me), and caused me to try to reduce loads. But that might not be the best for combat- it might well be that carrying more ammunition until the soldier nearly collapses is in fact the most effective infantry load in war. If that is true, then you could say that light infantry requires the sacrifice of soldiers' health.
 

DougM

Donor
If you don’t run the bombing campaign then you have a few issues.
The big one is that Germany has more resources to use elsewhere. Obviously the bombers were not as effective as was hopped but they did blow the guts out of a lot of German cities. My father lost 1 hour and three apartments as a kid in Hamburg and was shipped out of the city for a long time. So this DOES cost germany. And frankly the US CAN afford to do it. In fact the US could afford it better then germany could aford the damage the US did to it.
Also a lot of German fighters and pilots were lost that will be making life hell the USSR or on D day if. You don’t wonder over and make them come up to play. And bombers were a good way to find German fighters. In some ways the US bombers served as bait for US fighters to hunt German fighters and they did a good job of that.
Add in that if the US basicly sits on its but until Torch then sits around doing nothing but Torch and Itsly until D-Day you are going to have huge moral issues.

The best way to get ready is to build modern machine tools and plants in the
ate 40s. If you built the equivalent of the Ford Willow Run plant for the other companies befor the war then kicked them into high gear in early 42 Germany and Japan are going to be in a world of hurt.
Even if you order very minor production runs to keep them running. Say no more then IRL just building better organized factories designed to produce things faster and more efficiently will ultimately allow you to out produce your enemy much sooner.
 

nbcman

Donor
As opposed to weapons or strategy changes, have the US start production of penicillin earlier for a better antibiotic than sulfa drugs. Also recognizing the risk of the Japanese taking over the DEI and start building plants for synthetic rubber production and start up chinchona plantations in Central and South America for quinine production.
 

I did a thread on developing a 1.1 inch gatling a while back...to my mind it had potential if anyone had thought of it...
 
Developing the Gatling gun multi barrel technology for WW2 is not that big a stretch considering the basic idea was worked out 80 years previously. It's funny it wasn't actually done for real as the advances in technology that were achieved by 1940 would have easily permitted more advanced multi barrel guns. There are two big advantages to these weapons.

One, for their weight they throw out far more rounds then a single barrel, single breech weapon. This is an important consideration for airplanes. Instead of cramming 12 or 14 M2 Brownings into the nose of a B-25 put 3 or 4 of a .50 Caliber Vulcan type guns for the same if not higher rate of fire with less weight. This would leave more room and weight allowance for bigger magazines.

Two, these type of guns are far less prone to jamming as a bad round will be cycled out and ejected the same as a spent casing. This is because the cannon is driven either electrically or hydraulically. The improved reliability is a plus not only for shipboard CIWS type 20 MM cannons but also is crucial for airplane installations as instead of carrying 6 or 8 M2s a fighter may be carrying only one or two of the .50 multi barrel guns depending on their possible rate of fire and the available room in the fighter plane.

The downside of these weapons is that for airplane use they are too large to be fitted into the wings of fighters and there is no practical way to interrupt their firing to shoot through the propellor blades. This necessitates that these guns can only be installed in bomber or fighter airplanes that can allow these guns to be fitted in their nose. Or for bombers' gun turrets if a reliable ammo feed can have been developed.

Other considerations is the multi barrel guns require an external power source either electrical or hydraulic. This is not a problem for ships and is not a major problem for airplanes as electrical or hydraulic power can be supplied in any airplane. Even if the electrical current draw is high the brief and intermittent nature of firing should prevent the overloading of a battery buttressed airplane electrical system. For hydraulic systems as the pilot is not likely to be operating the flaps or landing gear during a firing pass the hydraulic pressure should be adequate to operate the multi barrel guns for a typical 1 or 2 second firing.

Another consideration for airplane usage is the ammunition feeds and the magazines. The high rate of fire with these weapons requires the use of large magazines and robust ammunition feeds that will work reliably under G-loading flight conditions. Otherwise the benefit gained by using the almost jam-free multi-barrel gun is lost. So careful design work would need be applied to the magazines and ammo feed. Well within the reach of 1940s technology.

Again, considering the Americans invented the Gatling gun and that there was some further recognition of its potential in the early 20th century it's surprising that this clear advantage in gun technology wasn't pursed seriously before the 1950s. Why carry 12 or 14 M2s when 2 or 3 M?s can do the job better and more reliably at half the weight?
 
The downside of these weapons is that for airplane use they are too large to be fitted into the wings of fighters and there is no practical way to interrupt their firing to shoot through the propellor blades.
That's not the case for externally driven weapons like the US rotary cannons. Soviet gas-operated rotary cannons would be almost impossible to synchronize, but externally driven guns are the easiest to synchronize with propeller blades. Either the electric motor driving the gun is synchronized to the propeller, or the entire gun is driven by a gear directly from the engine, which automatically makes the gun synchronized (though it will fire faster or slower depending on engine RPM). Either method is the most effective form of synchronization, as it does not reduce the ROF of the gun at all:
The most efficient solution to synchronisation was represented by the Hungarian Gebauer GKM and Czech Brno ZB-80, in which the gun's speed and firing rate were driven directly by the engine. Very high firing rates were therefore possible. However, these weapons were much less flexible in their application, as they could only be fitted within engine cowlings. In theory they could have been driven by electric motors to permit their installation in other locations, but there is no indication that this was tried.
Source (page 7)
 
Developing the Gatling gun multi barrel technology for WW2 is not that big a stretch considering the basic idea was worked out 80 years previously. It's funny it wasn't actually done for real as the advances in technology that were achieved by 1940 would have easily permitted more advanced multi barrel guns. There are two big advantages to these weapons.

One, for their weight they throw out far more rounds then a single barrel, single breech weapon. This is an important consideration for airplanes. Instead of cramming 12 or 14 M2 Brownings into the nose of a B-25 put 3 or 4 of a .50 Caliber Vulcan type guns for the same if not higher rate of fire with less weight. This would leave more room and weight allowance for bigger magazines.

Two, these type of guns are far less prone to jamming as a bad round will be cycled out and ejected the same as a spent casing. This is because the cannon is driven either electrically or hydraulically. The improved reliability is a plus not only for shipboard CIWS type 20 MM cannons but also is crucial for airplane installations as instead of carrying 6 or 8 M2s a fighter may be carrying only one or two of the .50 multi barrel guns depending on their possible rate of fire and the available room in the fighter plane.

The downside of these weapons is that for airplane use they are too large to be fitted into the wings of fighters and there is no practical way to interrupt their firing to shoot through the propellor blades. This necessitates that these guns can only be installed in bomber or fighter airplanes that can allow these guns to be fitted in their nose. Or for bombers' gun turrets if a reliable ammo feed can have been developed.

Other considerations is the multi barrel guns require an external power source either electrical or hydraulic. This is not a problem for ships and is not a major problem for airplanes as electrical or hydraulic power can be supplied in any airplane. Even if the electrical current draw is high the brief and intermittent nature of firing should prevent the overloading of a battery buttressed airplane electrical system. For hydraulic systems as the pilot is not likely to be operating the flaps or landing gear during a firing pass the hydraulic pressure should be adequate to operate the multi barrel guns for a typical 1 or 2 second firing.

Another consideration for airplane usage is the ammunition feeds and the magazines. The high rate of fire with these weapons requires the use of large magazines and robust ammunition feeds that will work reliably under G-loading flight conditions. Otherwise the benefit gained by using the almost jam-free multi-barrel gun is lost. So careful design work would need be applied to the magazines and ammo feed. Well within the reach of 1940s technology.

Again, considering the Americans invented the Gatling gun and that there was some further recognition of its potential in the early 20th century it's surprising that this clear advantage in gun technology wasn't pursed seriously before the 1950s. Why carry 12 or 14 M2s when 2 or 3 M?s can do the job better and more reliably at half the weight?

A 50 cal Gatling seems like a good weapon for the P-38. Fit a couple in the nose. Good for A-20s, B-25s, B-26s, and Mosquitos as well.

I'll make one guess for why Gatling-type guns weren't used in WW-2 aircraft. The two machine gun fighter plane was the standard for so long. It took awhile for a plane capable of carrying two or more rotary machine guns and still have high performance. Development of larger guns for aircraft went the cannon route. Explosive shells looked like a better solution for bringing down a bomber? Aircraft cannons sucked up the available design talent?
 
There was video on Youtube that showed FDR sometime in the late 1930s dedicating I think it was the Columbia river dams or possibly some stage of the TVA project. If somebody could locate that particular video that would be fine. Part of the dedication speech contains remarks where FDR contrasted the U.S. using its national budget for strengthening its domestic, industrial and economic infrastructure as compared to other nations spending theirs on an arms build up. It seems to me the Americans had already prepared adequately for WW2. What followed was the details. Important details yes but the outcome of WW2 had already been determined.
Considering the slack/unemployment in the US economy even late, I think its mostly just propaganda?
14+% of workers in 1937-9 could build a lot of useful stuff pre war.......
1587943725228.png

 
Considering the slack/unemployment in the US economy even late, I think its mostly just propaganda?
14+% of workers in 1937-9 could build a lot of useful stuff pre war.......
View attachment 542627

Agreed. For the most part a country prioritizing the civilian economy over the military is laudable and the smart and moral decision at the time the US had enough economic and industrial slack that it easily could have put more resources into the military. And thats factoring in spending and resources allocated to New Deal Programs.

At the time the regular US army was something like 100K men. Considering the unemployment rate at the time that could have easily been doubled or even tripled over a period of several years. Add in an expansion and modernization of the reserves and NG too boot.

I'm not talking about starting full blown WW2 mobilization in 1935. Just what would be a fairly moderate expansion of the Army considering the size of other nations armed forces and the resources available to the US. Perhaps have an enlargened and more militaryesque form of the CCC. The actual work of the corps would have been largely civilian oriented but there would have been at least some basic military training. Enlistees would potentially be enrolled in some form of the reserves after leaving.

The training camps and the like would have been at least slightly overbuilt in terms of capacity with the rational that they could be converted to serve as refugee housing/ disaster relief for Americans effected by natural disasters. In the event of a larger scale war mobilization the camps could be converted to train and organize new troops.

All of these fairly moderate measures would of course be highly difficult to pass in the OTL political enviroment of the time.
 
That's not the case for externally driven weapons like the US rotary cannons. Soviet gas-operated rotary cannons would be almost impossible to synchronize, but externally driven guns are the easiest to synchronize with propeller blades. Either the electric motor driving the gun is synchronized to the propeller, or the entire gun is driven by a gear directly from the engine, which automatically makes the gun synchronized (though it will fire faster or slower depending on engine RPM). Either method is the most effective form of synchronization, as it does not reduce the ROF of the gun at all:Source (page 7)

Thanks for the link. That was an interesting read. I wish the part about the Hungarian or Czech engine driven gun had specified exactly how fast a rate of fire. For a .50 caliber multi barrel aircraft gun I think you'd want 3000 rounds per minute or better. I wonder if that was possible using the engine driven mechanism? And forget about firing with a idling or dead engine. But then that is a very unlikely circumstance.
 
Agreed. For the most part a country prioritizing the civilian economy over the military is laudable and the smart and moral decision at the time the US had enough economic and industrial slack that it easily could have put more resources into the military. And thats factoring in spending and resources allocated to New Deal Programs.

At the time the regular US army was something like 100K men. Considering the unemployment rate at the time that could have easily been doubled or even tripled over a period of several years. Add in an expansion and modernization of the reserves and NG too boot.

I'm not talking about starting full blown WW2 mobilization in 1935. Just what would be a fairly moderate expansion of the Army considering the size of other nations armed forces and the resources available to the US. Perhaps have an enlargened and more militaryesque form of the CCC. The actual work of the corps would have been largely civilian oriented but there would have been at least some basic military training. Enlistees would potentially be enrolled in some form of the reserves after leaving.

The training camps and the like would have been at least slightly overbuilt in terms of capacity with the rational that they could be converted to serve as refugee housing/ disaster relief for Americans effected by natural disasters. In the event of a larger scale war mobilization the camps could be converted to train and organize new troops.

All of these fairly moderate measures would of course be highly difficult to pass in the OTL political enviroment of the time.

I wish I could find the Youtube video I mentioned about FDRs' speech. But the key point here was that he was dedicating a Hydro-electric dam. The increase in the US's electric generating capacity in the mid to late Thirties was required for the Rural Electrification scheme and other industrial purposes. It also happened as it turned out to ensure that the feared Aluminum shortages that had the aircraft manufacturing industry concerned never seriously occurred. Aluminum refining demands the heavy use of electricity.
 
A 50 cal Gatling seems like a good weapon for the P-38. Fit a couple in the nose. Good for A-20s, B-25s, B-26s, and Mosquitos as well.

I'll make one guess for why Gatling-type guns weren't used in WW-2 aircraft. The two machine gun fighter plane was the standard for so long. It took awhile for a plane capable of carrying two or more rotary machine guns and still have high performance. Development of larger guns for aircraft went the cannon route. Explosive shells looked like a better solution for bringing down a bomber? Aircraft cannons sucked up the available design talent?

Sounds plausible to me. And also perhaps the Gatling concept was superficially regarded as ancient obsolete technology that was quickly dismissed. Too bad as the 20MM cannon could also have been developed as a multi-barrel weapon. I don't think you'd want or need the 6000 RPM the OTL M61 can do but 1500 RPM would make for a very powerful gun. This approach would eliminate the OTL problems with the H/S 20MM that plagued the US in WW2.

But the magazine size and feed design would be a real challenge. And forget about a wing installation. I would agree that the .50 caliber Gatling seems like a more feasible and a better fit for WW2 size airplanes.
 
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