Start of a TL: Norse England

My first TL, this is just a really really rough beginning. Please tell me if it is good, or ridiculous (say it nicely though;)) Please point out any errors.


September 20th, 1066: King Harold Godwinson sets out from London to meet King Harald Hardrada of Norway's army, which is stationed in York. Along the way, they meet up the West Mercian and East Anglian fyrd. Harold wants to crush the Viking threat before William, Duke of Normandy, a claimant to the English throne launches his invasion of England. His army is made up of proffesional thegns and huscarls


September 24th, 1066: King Harold's army reaches Tadcaster, only 16 km away from York. They had marched 320km in four days and are tired. His army camps here for the night. King Harold wants to surprise the Vikings at Stamford Bridge, so he made sure no one new he was in the area. However, two Northumbrian men working for the Vikings as scouts see the camp of soldiers and report back to Hardradra, who then sends for the soldiers he had left guarding the ships. The Viking army now numbers about 8,000 compared to Harold's 7,000.


Morning, September 25th, 1066: At about 8:00, Hardrada's army attacks the Saxons at Tadcaster. Most of Godwinson's soldiers barely have time to put on their armour before the Vikings charge into their camp. King Harold desperately tries to rally his men and form a shield wall, but the peasants of the army rout and begin to flee. The Saxons manage to form up but their numbers have been reduced to only 5,500 men. The Vikings rush the shield wall and a one sided battle ensues. Harold's forces are slowly being pushed back, but the wall cannot be breached. Eventually, one anonymous and reputedly giant Norwegian breaks through the the line and charges the King. He kills over thirty soldiers that are in his way before being killed. However, the damage is done. The Vikings and their allies pour through the gap and the Saxons break and run. King Harald is killed and England goes to King Harald Hardrada of Norway.


September 26th, 1066: King Harald learns of William of Normandy's planned invasion. He is conflicted as he cannot march his army south before securing the lands he had conquered. Reinforcements were already on their way from Scotland, the Orkney Islands and Norway, but it would be days before any arrived. He grants Earl Tostig the lands of Northumbria.


September 28th, 1066: William's army lands at Pevensey in Sussex and build a castle at Hastings. From there they raid the surrounding countryside.


October 3rd, 1066: The last remnants of the Anglo-Saxon army led by Earl Gyrth, brother of Harold Godwinson, attempt to drive the Normans out. They ally themselves to the Norse in hopes that they will be granted land. They are defeated and Earl Gyrth flees to Flanders. Hardrada marches south towards London.


October 5th, 1066: 3000 reinforcements arrive from Orkney and Scotland. They are mostly armed with swords and spears. The Norse army is made up almost entirely of infantry, and number about 9,000. The core of the army are the Housecarls, armed with two-handed Danish battleaxes. They wear chain mail and carry a round shield. The bulk of the army, or the fyrd, were poorly armed peasants who had little milltary training. Their loyalty to Hardrada is dubious, but they lack incentive to resist him.


October 8th, 1066: Harald Hardrada reaches London and declares himself king. The Norman army marches north. It is comprised of infantry, cavalry and archers and contains about 8,500 soldiers. William means to meet the Norse outside of London.
October 10th, 1066: Norse and Norman forces collide outside of London. The Norman archers begin the battle by firing volley after volley at the Viking shield wall. The Vikings are virtually unharmed but William orders his infantry to charge, believing that the defenders have been weakened. The Norse have the upper hand and inflict severe casualties upon the Normans. William realizes something is wrong, and orders his cavalry to charge. The horses charge at the Norwegian shield wall and many panic from the wall of axes and spears. William's left flank falters and breaks completely and retreat. Hardrada orders his men to charge. In the confused fighting, William of Normandy is killed. The Norman army surrenders soon after. However, Earl Tostig, brother of Harold Godwinson is killed as well.


October 11th, 1066: The Normans return to France. King Harald begins the work of ruling England.
 
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I am a little foggy on the details of this time period and this specific battle. My only experiences with Vikings are a couple books, that thing about barbarians on the History Channel, and a trip to Scandinavia a few years ago. But overall in my humble opinion it is pretty good.
 
Thanks. The main thing I'm worried about is if the dates and smaller details are realistic.

The next part will be a bit different, as this is just setting up the TL.
 
Move hastings analogue back by a few days, if you are worried about dates. As it is, youre hastings is a few days early, which is a bit of a hard sell, considering that the POD is Stanford Bridge, and Harold had to make a forced march (and abandon his northern host while rallying the southern fyrd to do so) to make Hastings with that time. In fact, that as much as anything else may be what doomed him IOTL. Harold Hardraada, on the other hand, will not necessarily need to make such a forced march, although it might not be a bad idea, and sending time rallying english support between him and tostig would not be a bad idea. Although the battle being fought closer to london may cancel this out.

earl gyrth's bit will also have to be redone. I can't remember if he was present at Stanford Bridge, but it is reasonable to see him taking the surviving host south. However, he was not exactly opposed to William (or, at least, he counseled against engaging him so soon). I can see him leading the rearguard south, and rallying the southern levies as Harold did (it is interesting to note that the army harold fought Hastings with was very different than the one he fought at Stanford with). he can probably muster a decently large host. Whether he strikes out on his own, sides with Harold, or allies with William is an open question. Keep in mind, however, that such an alliance is not out of the question, and that if Gyrth decides to claim the crown for himself, he will not immediatly give himself another enemy. If that is the case, he will probably wait as long as he can, bidding his time and preparing to strike.

Finally, under these circumstances, William might not fortify at Hastings and opt instead to rush for London, trying to solidify his position.

In this somewhat revised scenario, the power balance will be interesting. Harold will have a bloodied but battered army, a history of norse rule, and the right of conquest. William has his own claim, and ossibly London and the south, plus a fresh host which can match anything fielded against him. Gyrth has blood relation (although Tostig could contest this), his own army, the most diplomatic flexibility (history, situation, and personality suggest that he can ally with either of his rivals, whereas Harold and William most likely have to conquer or die in the attempt), and the 11th century equivalent of grassroots support. This three-cornered fight will be very interesting.

Overall, despite the above thoughts, a very intriguing and well thought out scenario. I would also like to offer some congratulations. Stanford Bridge is one of my favorite PODs, but I've never really thought about the short term consequences in terms of who actually comes out on top and how, or other things like some of Harold;s brothers living even as he dies. This scenario has gotten me thinking. I'd like to see how you intend to continue this.
 
I really like your ideas. I'm working on a revised version where Earl Gyrth flees to Wales and William survives the battle, so there will be another struggle for the throne.

I also moved the "Hastings" battle back to October 12th and made it so that Earl Tostig survives as well, to help Hardrada diplomatically with the Saxon nobles.
 
Ok here is it revised slightly:


September 20th, 1066: King Harold Godwinson sets out from London to meet King Harald Hardrada of Norway's army, which is stationed in York. Along the way, they meet up the West Mercian and East Anglian fyrd on the way. Harold wants to crush the Viking threat before William, Duke of Normandy, a claimant to the English throne launches his invasion of England. His army is made up of proffesional thegns and huscarls


September 24th, 1066: King Harold's army reaches Tadcaster, only 16 km away from York. They had marched 320km in four days and are tired. His army camps here for the night. King Harold wants to surprise the Vikings at Stamford Bridge, so he made sure no one new he was in the area. However, two Northumbrian men working for the Vikings as scouts see the camp of soldiers and report back to Hardradra, who then sends for the soldiers he had left guarding the ships. The Viking army now numbers about 8,000 compared to Harold's 7,000.


Morning, September 25th, 1066: At about 8:00, Hardrada's army attacks the Saxons at Tadcaster. Harold is given a slight warning because the Vikings march can be heard from far away. However, most of his soldiers barely have time to put on their armour before the Vikings charge into their camp. King Harold desperately tries to rally his men and form a shield wall, but the peasants of the army rout and begin to flee. The Saxons manage to form up but their numbers have been reduced to only 5,500 men. The Vikings rushed the shield wall and a one sided battle ensues. Harold's forces are slowly being pushed back, but the wall cannot be breached. Eventually, one anonymous and reputedly giant Norwegian broke through the the line and charged the King. He killed over thirty soldiers that were in his way before being killed. However, the damage was done. The Vikings and their allies poured through the gap and the Saxons broke and ran. King Harald was killed and England went to King Harald Hardrada of Norway.


September 26th, 1066: King Harald learns of William of Normandy's planned invasion. He is conflicted as he cannot march his army south before securing the lands he had conquered. Reinforcements were already on their way from Scotland, the Orkney Islands and Norway, but it would be days before any arrived. He grants Earl Tostig the lands of Northumbria.


September 28th, 1066: William's army lands at Pevensey in Sussex and build a castle at Hastings. From there they raid the surrounding countryside.


October 3rd, 1066: Earl Gyrth, brother of the King, flees to Wales with much of the Saxon fyrd. He plans to take the throne himself.


October 5th, 1066: 3000 reinforcements arrive from Orkney and Scotland. They are mostly armed with swords and spears. The Norse army is made up almost entirely of infantry, and number about 9,000. The core of the army are the Housecarls, armed with two-handed Danish battleaxes. They wear chain mail and carry a round shield. The bulk of the army, or the fyrd, were poorly armed peasants who had little milltary training. Their loyalty to Hardrada is dubious, but they lack incentive to resist him.


October 8th, 1066: Harald Hardrada reaches London and declares himself king. The Norman army marches north. It is comprised of infantry, cavalry and archers and contains about 8,500 soldiers. William means to meet the Norse outside of London.


October 12th, 1066: Norse and Norman forces collide outside of London. The Norman archers begin the battle by firing volley after volley at the Viking shield wall. The Vikings are virtually unharmed but William orders his infantry to charge, believing that the defenders have been weakened. The Norse have the upper hand and inflict severe casualties upon the Normans. William realizes something is wrong, and orders his cavalry to charge. The horses charge at the Norwegian shield wall and many panic from the wall of axes and spears. William's left flank falters and breaks completely and retreat. Hardrada orders his men to charge. The Norse steadily begin to gain the upper hand. Eventually, the bulk of the Norman army breaks and flees.


October 13th, 1066: William returns to France. King Harald begins the work of ruling England.
 
I agree that it is good so far...

Are you planning on having a "Harrying of the South" to help make England more Norse than Anglo?
 
Yeah, I was planning on having something roughly similar to the Harrowing of the North.

How soon do you guys think William could launch his second invasion?
 
AFAIK a considerable part of his force was allies and vassals. A defeat like that couldn't but hurt his standing with them. So perhaps not soon.
 
Yeah, I was planning on having something roughly similar to the Harrowing of the North.

How soon do you guys think William could launch his second invasion?

A while. When William returns (assuming he does manage to), he will have to rebuild his strength while fending off his enemies and any opprotunists on the continent. France, Brittany, Flanders, Anjou, HRE, and any others with any connection to the region will see Normandy weakened and possibly try to make some gains out of the situation. William will have a handful to simply retain power.
 
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I'm not sure about a Harrying of the South. My knowledge of this period is not perfect, but I have an instinct that the Norse kings tended to treat England as a kind of long-lost cousin to Scandinavia before this and England hadn't progressed since then enough to shake that mindset. Granted there was tension between the English and the Norse Kings, but I seem to recall that the Norse tended to respect the English institutions far more that William I ever did. Furthermore, the Norsemen didn't have the Norman feudal sense of supremacy and the desire to "Frank-icise" (or Norse-icise) as the Normans had done when they took to their own Frank-icising so well. Rather, given the recent advances in Government, you might just see some of the English political structures spreading to Scandinavia. I think the Norse Kings tended to value England's resources given their own countries' sparseness and such. I think I recall that Cnut spent most of his reign in England rather than Scandinavia, and I think this was typical of the Norse - I think England given a more permanent Norse rulership could become seen as the dominant Scandinavian country (I think it's entirely possible that England could be seen as part of Scandinavia down the line) with a meld of English and Norse cultures spreading not just throughout England but back into the Norse countries. Say Denmark and England gain a lasting personal union, I can see London being seen as the regular capital of the two. I certainly have doubts over a campaign of destruction in the name of ethnic superiority.

Feel free to correct me if anyone knows better. As I say, I think I'm speaking accurately but this isn't my period of expertise.
 
Interesting ideas. I'm pretty sure that the Northern part of England would accept Norse rule pretty quickly, as they had been ruled by the Danes before and because Scandinavians had been settling there for centuries. The south, however, was the stronghold of the Saxons so I see them being less likely to accept a Norwegian ruler...
 
The south, however, was the stronghold of the Saxons so I see them being less likely to accept a Norwegian ruler...
Well the south wasn't Happy about the Normans either.:p
And the Normans are simply Norse several generations removed.

I am waiting to see how this butterflies in Italy and the Normans.
 
Interesting ideas. I'm pretty sure that the Northern part of England would accept Norse rule pretty quickly, as they had been ruled by the Danes before and because Scandinavians had been settling there for centuries. The south, however, was the stronghold of the Saxons so I see them being less likely to accept a Norwegian ruler...

On the other hand, they have been ruled by the Norse before. Consider, for instance, how Harthacanute compelled Earl Leofric to sack Worchester for defying his orders.

On a similar vein, I believe that, while the south would rather be ruled by Saxons, they would rather the Norse to the Norman. Admittidly, there is circumstantial evidence for this, but it is interesting. Certainly, the sons of earl Godwin would not support the Normans unless compelled to; their father lead an uprising against their influence. However, it should be considered that there may be a substantial power vacumn. IOTL, one of the reasons that William was so successful is at Hastings, by killing the Godwinsons he broke the power of the English nobles. Between them, the sons of the old earl had effective control over all of England. But they all bit it at Stanford bridge and Hastings, along with Hardraada, leaving nobody in a position to stop William. Expect both William and Harold to temporarily benefit from this before they clash, but many Saxons to rally around Gyrth (or any surviving brothers of Harold) as their champion.
 
I am waiting to see how this butterflies in Italy and the Normans.

"Not much" would be my answer. The Norman conquests across Europe, particularly in Italy, were the result of enterprising behaviour, the Normans who took Sicily weren't Kings seeking to expand their demands but minor Nobles who saw a chance to conquer territory. This spirit and their logistics would be little affected by a failure to take England I think, so I reckon Norman Italy would be as OTL, except for maybe the slightest touch of battered pride making a few victories more comprehensive. If we say William "the Conqueror" (OTL only) doesn't take England at all I think you'd see him turning to Brittany to take out his frustration, so you'll quite possibly see a France with more Norman domains, but all in all I can't see the Normans ever taking the French throne, and give it a couple of centuries I can see the Normans getting too much attention and getting into conflict with the Kings of France. They might survive for a while but I reckon eventually there will be a weak Norman Duke who receives something of a beat-down by France. Eventually by about the 16th century you'll probably be seeing the Normandy and Brittany (or wherever the Normans spread to take) just being subsumed into the Bourbon French state as other French duchies and counties were OTL.
 
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